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New XML-Based Web Services Standard Proposed | |
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| Time: 04:13 EST/09:13 GMT | News Source: TechWeb | Posted By: Alex Harris | ||
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The list of proposals for Web-services standards continues to grow. The latest, called Web Service Choreography Interface, is from BEA Systems Inc., Intalio Inc., SAP AG, and Sun Microsystems Inc. WSCI is XML based and would help developers program the sequence of multiple transactions defined as Web services within a business process. WSCI, which has been published on the companies' Web sites, will eventually be submitted to an industry standards body. Noticeably absent among the companies endorsing WSCI are IBM and Microsoft, which use other technologies to orchestrate the flow of Web services. Research and consulting firm Delphi Group said that "the proposed standard itself is moving into areas in which IBM and Microsoft haven't been able to come to agreement around a standards vs. a proprietary value-add approach to the market." Nevertheless, such technology is needed to use Web services as part of a larger, more complex business process, instead of simple information retrieval, Delphi said. | ||
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| #1 By BobSmith (3719 Posts) at 6/30/2002 4:38:43 AM |
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"which has been published on the companies' Web sites, will eventually be submitted to an industry standards body"
If WSCI hasn't been submitted, why is it called a proposed standard. If it hasn't been submitted it isn't a proposal. |
| #2 By killlunix (69 Posts) at 6/30/2002 1:04:44 PM |
| Because sun is still trying to make it work with FTP :) |
| #3 By RMD (1839 Posts) at 6/30/2002 1:35:07 PM |
| Sigh... just when I thought Sun finally got their act together. |
| #4 By sodablue (5245 Posts) at 6/30/2002 3:52:30 PM |
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A day late, a dollar short.
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| #5 By binhex (314 Posts) at 6/30/2002 6:40:42 PM |
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"A day late, a dollar short."
Same could be said about Microsoft's new security iniatives. Point is, being blatantly pro- or anti-MS vs. being blatantly pro- or anti-Sun (or anything else, for that matter) isn't really adding anything valuable to any conversation and it's certainly easy to spot so please don't think you guys are fooling anyone... Nit picking about the use of the word "proposed" or summarily discounting Sun and their efforts is the same thing you guys jump on other people for saying about Microsoft. How do you justify the double-standard? This post was edited by binhex on Sunday, June 30, 2002 at 18:41. |
| #6 By sodablue (5245 Posts) at 6/30/2002 7:34:05 PM |
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"How do you justify the double-standard?"
Oh that's simple... I have never claimed to not be a hypocrite. |
| #7 By RMD (1839 Posts) at 6/30/2002 8:09:47 PM |
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#5 - I don't have a double standard. I criticize Microsoft when they deserve it, and I criticize Sun when the deserve it.
And in this case, they do. I've read their proposal (available here: http://ifr.sap.com/wsci/), and is basically the same as the web service specs defined (and implemented I might point out) by IBM and Microsoft (and MANY other businesses), except it adds some multi-message stuff. It could be argued that this addition is a good thing, and that it will allow for more robust transactions support. I think, however, it will simply complicate the protocol, and lead it to the same fate another overly complicated protocol had... namely, CORBA. CORBA didn't die because it couldn't do the job... it died because it was confusing, difficult to implement, and hard to maintain. SOAP based Web Services are easy in every way. Now, don't get me wrong... I'm not for easy if it can't do the job, but Web Services via SOAP most certainly CAN do the job. With the addition of the upcoming security standardizations proposed by IBM and Microsoft, there is very little this new WSCI standard could do that SOAP cannot. (In fact, there is *nothing* WSCI can do that SOAP can't, it's just that many of these things haven't been finalized in SOAP yet). I think Sun has lead this new "standard" not to improve the capabilities of web services, but to try and take away the MASSIVE and COMMANDING lead that IBM and Microsoft have over Sun, since if this new "standard" is adopted, it will force Microsoft to either interoperate or move to it completely. While there are a few things in SOAP that could be improved (namely, the security standards... I really hope that stuff gets finalized soon...), WSCI offers no real innovation over SOAP... or, at least, certainly none that would warrant any kind of shift from SOAP. So, please, read the proposal... compare that with SOAP, and come to your own conclusions. I would be very interested to hear them. This post was edited by RMD on Sunday, June 30, 2002 at 20:12. |
| #8 By BobSmith (3719 Posts) at 6/30/2002 8:26:07 PM |
| I wouldn't quite call nit picking over the definition of a word. Sun has a track records with standards - Java three times submitted and three times withdrawn from standards bodies. Just because Sun claims that it has a proposed standard, until it has actually proposed the standard, there is little reason to believe that it will actually do so. This is quite similar to people disbelieving six months ago that Microsoft would really put security first in their products - over new features, over release dates. |
| #9 By Ceazar (94 Posts) at 6/30/2002 11:27:07 PM |
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#7 >>> CORBA didn't die because it couldn't do the job
CORBA died??? Oh, please don't tell my board of directors that; they think its working just fine for our company! |
| #10 By RMD (1839 Posts) at 7/1/2002 12:53:44 AM |
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#9 - Then your company is pretty out of touch with the rest of the industry.
Can you name a SINGLE CORBA vendor still... um... vending? Nobody supports CORBA anymore, and for good reason. Come on, if you're a developer, and you've worked with CORBA, you have to see what I'm talking about. I admit, however, that its complicated nature isn't the only reason it died... the fact that CORBA didn't offer any real "standard" ways of doing things... instead, it offered a standard set of messages that could be used doing a lot of other things, and because of the fact that each of these things could be done in basically an infinite number of ways, interop was nearly impossible on any even midly large scale. So that was another problem with CORBA... but despite the fact your company uses CORBA, you must admit that it's about as widely used as Java on the client. |
| #11 By Ceazar (94 Posts) at 7/1/2002 8:55:33 AM |
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#10 >>> Can you name a SINGLE CORBA vendor still... um... vending?
Iona. >>> but despite the fact your company uses CORBA, you must admit that it's about as widely used as Java on the client Then who were all those people carrying tote bags stuffed with product literature at the last user's group meeting I went to? And why is Iona doing so well financially, when CORBA middleware is all they do? >>> interop was nearly impossible on any even midly large scale Is that why we used it to tie together a dozen applications running on two mainframes, about three dozen applications running mid-ranged servers, and a mariad of PC-based applications? And is that why it is used by both large corporations and government entities, because it isn't scalable? >>> Then your company is pretty out of touch with the rest of the industry This may come as a shock to you, but there actually is life after Microsoft. >>> Come on, if you're a developer, and you've worked with CORBA, you have to see what I'm talking about. I am a developer, and actually, no, I don't have to agree with you. This post was edited by Ceazar on Monday, July 01, 2002 at 08:58. |
| #12 By BobSmith (3719 Posts) at 7/1/2002 9:01:07 AM |
| CORBA has less life in it than Apple has market share. Yes Macs are still around, but no they certainly aren't market leaders. So what if there are people who use CORBA still. It has a minute portion of the market. |
| #13 By sodablue (5245 Posts) at 7/1/2002 10:54:22 AM |
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"And why is Iona doing so well financially, when CORBA middleware is all they do? "
According to their public filings they lost 86 million on sales of 111 million last year. That's a really small niche company, and not one doing well financially, unless you're comparing it to say VA Software who lost $8 million on revenues of $5 million just this past quarter. I have no opinion either way... I've never seen CORBA actually used anywhere I have worked, but that's not all inclusive. |
| #14 By RMD (1839 Posts) at 7/1/2002 1:15:37 PM |
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#11 - Iona was most certainly a CORBA vendor, but have moved the majority of their product line to J2EE in an effort to stay alive. Yes, they still offer good support for CORBA, so I stand corrected.
"Then who were all those people carrying tote bags stuffed with product literature at the last user's group meeting I went to? And why is Iona doing so well financially, when CORBA middleware is all they do?" Tote bags? Man... you've got me. I didn't realize people were carrying tote bags! Case closed! And I think Sodablue covered your financials claims. "This may come as a shock to you, but there actually is life after Microsoft." I wasn't just talking about Microsoft... I was talking about what the industry as a whole is using... and it certainly isn't CORBA. "I am a developer, and actually, no, I don't have to agree with you." Well, I guess if you work with a particular CORBA install day after day, you would get used to, and familiar with, all its little intricacies. |
| #15 By Ceazar (94 Posts) at 7/1/2002 10:25:30 PM |
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#14 >>> but have moved the majority of their product line to J2EE in an effort to stay alive
Huh? J2EE includes mechanisms that give support for CORBA, it does not compete with CORBA. Have you ever used J2EE? >>> And I think Sodablue covered your financials claims. Yes, I especially like the part where he picks the most prejudicial number he can find, ignoring other facts like that the firm's dilluted loss was minimal (especially considering the rest of the market and Sept 11), and that the firm's assets are up three to four fold from last year, and that the firm has no debt. But I guess that if everyone else isn't bad, MS can't be good. >>> Well, I guess if you work with a particular CORBA install day after day... Yes, just like I work with a particular MS install day after day, and have gotten used to, and familiar with, all its little intricacies. Those are some of the legacy apps that we are integrating, after all. So your point is? Oh I know: MS good, every else bad. As you said "case closed". This post was edited by Ceazar on Monday, July 01, 2002 at 22:32. |
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