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MSDN Subscriber Downloads Update: Removal of Microsoft Virtual Machine Software | |
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| Time: 00:00 EST/05:00 GMT | News Source: ActiveWin.com | Posted By: Robert Stein | ||
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We are notifying you that at 12:01am Pacific Standard Time, December 23, 2003, we will begin to remove the following content from MSDN Subscriber Downloads. If you require any of this content now or anticipate needing it in the future, we encourage you to download it prior to December 23. Depending upon when you began your MSDN Subscription, you may already have some or all of this software on CD or DVD media provided with your MSDN Subscription. Note that the availability of this software to you on MSDN Subscriber Downloads is dependent upon your subscription level. The products that will no longer be available are:
Note that we anticipate providing updated versions of the following products on MSDN Subscriber Downloads in the near future (specific dates are not available):
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Read Only Comments Return to News |
Displaying Comments 1 through 10 of 10 |
This is an archived static copy of ActiveWin.com. |
| #1 By 20 (67.9.179.51) at Monday, December 15, 2003 11:58:46 PM |
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Wonder what this adventure has cost MS? Millions and millions I would assume.
Lesson learned: Never try to deal with Sun's crap again. Just let them have their stupid technologies and just make a better product than them. It saves you lots of money over the long run. |
| #2 By 6859 (206.156.242.36) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 09:30:08 AM |
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I wonder why Windows 98 SE isn't on the chopping block along with the rest of the 98 line.
To me, that would make some sense. But to leave it in seems to be counter to what MS has been wanting to do for quite some time (migrate people to XP). |
| #3 By 2960 (156.80.64.137) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 01:29:57 PM |
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Well, the last I heard, Microsoft still has a choice in this. Instead they have chosen to go home and pout.
IIRC, they are more than free to create their own JVM for Windows. I don't believe Sun, the courts, or anyone else is stopping that. What they _can't_ do is try and bastardize Java into a Windows-Only platform, and I believe that is what all the ruckus is about. Sounds fair to me! TL |
| #4 By 20 (24.173.210.58) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 03:33:56 PM |
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No, they actually can't create their own JVM. In fact, I don't believe anyone can right now without a specific license from Sun.
There are some open-source attempts at reverse-engineering, but they're treading dangerous ground there. |
| #5 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 04:26:18 PM |
| Actually, TL, Microsoft is doing exactly what they promised to do per the settlement agreement. It seems you should check your facts before posting. |
| #6 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 04:27:37 PM |
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Just for the heck of it...
TL, any 1.1.4 pure Java app runs perfectly on the Microsoft VM. So much for Windows-Only. On this point, both you and Sun should check your facts. |
| #7 By 12071 (203.185.215.149) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 09:35:34 PM |
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#7 Yes, every Java 1.1.4 app that runs on Sun's JVM will also run on MSVM (and it will run a lot faster!!). However the reverse is not necessarily true, there are plenty of "Java" apps that will run on MSJVM and ONLY the MSJVM. THIS is what Sun's issue was, that it was going against the whole principal of Java, "write once, run anywhere". If you disagree with this, good for you, but don't make it out as if Microsoft did nothing wrong! (My personal view on all of this which is irrelevant to Sun's definition of what Java is and isn't is that I liked the fact MS added their own extensions/classes which allowed the developer to either write pure-Java applications or applications specifically targetting (in this case) Windows (which ran multiple times faster!)).
If this is all due to MS having to remove their JVM... they why isn't Windows 98 SE being removed? Why isn't Windows ME being removed? How does Visio use MSVM? How does Visual Basic use MSVM? Let me guess... they don't! This is just a nice way of removing support for a whole range of products and then saying "Sun made us do it!". |
| #8 By 20 (67.9.179.51) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:36:35 PM |
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Here's the facts:
MS's JVM implemented the Java 1.1.4 spec except for Remoting and JNI. MS's JVM also added JDirect and MS's own brand of Remoting and JNI. Sun sued and won. MS was forbidden to produce any new JVM products, but they can support their product and allow new downloads through 12/31/2001 and release security patches up until 12/31/2003. Java2, the only half-way respectible Java started with Java SDK 1.2. They're currently on 1.4.03 last time I checked. Java2 includes things like the Collection API and Swing, two things that, while not the greatest, make Java suck a WHOLE lot less than it did in the < 1.2 days. |
| #9 By 1845 (67.161.212.73) at Tuesday, December 16, 2003 11:47:43 PM |
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kabuki, so the problem isn't with Microsoft's VM, it's with J++. Just remove the tool that allows you to create non 100% pure apps and all is well. What does it matter if the VM hangs around to let people with existing impure apps continue to work? Just make sure that no new "offending" apps can be written. Anyway, whatever, it's over, no more Java.
Um, I kind of doubt that Microsoft would retire a product unless it had to. And, I'd guess if you were right, Sun would probably say so. What better way to promote StarOffice than to say, look, Microsoft won't even support Office XP, they lie and tell you our settlement made them stop distrib'ing it, but look, here's the settlement, not a word of it! If you were correct, I'm sure somebody would have read the fine print of the settlement and written an article defending your point. Just a hunch, I think you are wrong. |
| #10 By 12071 (203.217.24.43) at Wednesday, December 17, 2003 10:23:35 AM |
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#10 "so the problem isn't with Microsoft's VM, it's with J++"
No the problem is with MSVM! The MSVM had extensions put into it that would only run on Windows... J++ only allowed the developer to access those extensions! As for not allowing the creation of any new "offending" apps that's fine but as I mentioned before this went against Java's principal of "write once, run anywhere" - regardless of whether you like it or not. "Um, I kind of doubt that Microsoft would retire a product unless it had to." I know you do, which is why I asked you how Visio and Visual Basic (as 2 examples) use the MSJM. Please inform me I am genuinely curious to know this as it really does baffle me why those two products have anything to do with the MSVM. Additionally, as I asked, why is it that Windows 98 SE and Windows ME are not being retired? Both of these had the MSVM in it, surely if they have to remove the VM from all their products then they have to do something about 98SE and ME? Or is it just a simple matter of them retiring all Windows before 98SE and those above 98SE will just get a removal patch or something similar? These are all fairly straightforward questions. "If you were correct, I'm sure somebody would have read the fine print of the settlement and written an article defending your point." So until someone writes an article with similar questions to mine then I obviously must be incorrect.... okay then. "Just a hunch, I think you are wrong." Hunches are good, and I may very well be wrong, I am after all just curious to know the answers to those questions. |
