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Microsoft Zune Review

Time: 01:26 EST/06:26 GMT | News Source: Windows SuperSite | Posted By: Byron Hinson

Zune devices are packaged in Spartan, Apple-like boxes that don't utilize the Microsoft name or logo, unless you look at the small bottom side (likewise, the Zune Web site and advertisements downplay the Microsoft name in startling ways, given the company's name recognition). There was a joke video that made the rounds earlier this year, showing what iPod packaging would look like if Microsoft marketed the device (the video was made, ironically, by a Microsoft employee) and clearly the Zune team was aware of the problem. So the Zune packaging doesn't look anything like a Microsoft product. In fact, it looks exactly like an Apple product. Exactly. Like. An. Apple. Product.

In a nice (and, yes, Apple-like) touch, the Zune packaging provides a nice reveal moment via a pull-out drawer that extends out of the brown outer shell, exposing the "Welcome to the social" tagline I obviously love so much. This drawer provides access to the Zune device itself, which can be extracted with a nice (Apple-like) cloth pull-tab. On either side of the device, two small compartments flip open to reveal nicely wrapped and packaged accessories, including painfully cheap headphones (with old-school foam ear bud covers like a 2001-era iPod) and the USB sync cable (which introduces yet another proprietary dock connector on the Zune side of the equation). Aside from the 'phones, everything is pretty high quality: All the components are wrapped up nicely, and the sync cable has nice plastic protectors on either end. The vibe is one of (Apple-like) substance. You feel like someone really cared when they put the whole thing together. If you've never seen an iPod, you'll be super impressed.

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Displaying Comments 1 through 48 of 48

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#1 By 3 (62.253.128.15) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 01:43:22 AM

Agree with this review completly.

#2 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 03:07:40 AM

#1, Have you used one yet?

I mean, reviews suggest there is no PodCast support - that simply isn't true at all - the Zune has a built in transcoder. Reviewers also mention a completely closed off ecosystem - also totally false - eMusic titles can easily be brought over to the Zune. Need an RSS and PodCast manager, check here, http://feedyourzune.com

Gartner nails it - where rewarding behaviors, like awarding points for sharing titles other Zune owners is next and a marketing technique with real teeth - it taps into very strong behavioral responses with a proven efficacy. See,

Gartner's recent research study, "Consumer Taste Sharing Is Driving the Online Music Business and Democratizing Culture," supports this. According to the report, said McGuire, nearly one-quarter of frequent online music users want the ability to share music. Also, some of the most regular users of online music are the most interested in consumer-generated recommendation tools. McGuire and co-author Derek Slater predicted that by 2010, 25 percent of online music buying will be driven "directly from consumer-to-consumer taste-sharing applications.""

According to Gartner, Microsoft has the right strategy with is "Welcome to the Social" slogan and Zune sharing features. It's true that the Wi-fi feature is technically cool. We are certainly missing the Zune to PC synchronization, but the real goal for Microsoft is the sharing of music that will lead to music discovery for users and then converted to sales at the Marketplace. The missing part is the incentive for users to share their music with other users. This will come when Microsoft introduces the unannounced commission plan based on Microsoft points."

User sharing and Zune's own army of editors and content creators in the market place that add a lot to the information known about titles cover both ends of a very strong bridge.

Most reviews don't even mention TV-OUT, or Xbox 360 integration, much less guest accounts or the variable bit rate [VBR] used that is a full 192 kb/sec on the Zune - the highest quality in the industry and higher than iPod.

At best, it's a half-assed review and I am betting written to sustain some kind of "street cred" with Leo Laporte over on Twit. Talk about "faux coolness" as Paul describes J Allard - man, check the freaking mirror. I mean, Steve Jobs, defines "cool" <ask the kids to leave the room> - you have to be flipping kidding me. I think he's a dork that not only can tolerate his own brand... he likely bottles it.

Neither Microsoft, or Allard will relent. Give them six months to leverage the Zune as a platform component and the iPod and Jobs will both be in trouble.

All I know is this... we have teens and they say this: "The iPod is LAME, everyone has one. The Zune is cool because of how it feels and the colors are cool." and like any box folks, teens forget about it and any booklet included in it faster than you can say, "hey <name deleted, because one of my boys really does think I'm a geek> squirt me that song from 50 Cent..." Personally, I think Paul's kids are too young and he's too old to have seen any of this.

#3 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 04:24:25 AM

"the Zune Web site and advertisements downplay the Microsoft name in startling ways"

and this is unexpected or in some way novel? has Paul been been to xbox.com in the last 5 years?

Its gonna be interested to see how well these sell in Christmas 2007 and 2008.

#4 By 12071 (203.217.94.252) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 06:34:52 AM

#2 Oh no, Mr Microsoft himself has slagged off the Zune, time to write a few paragraphs telling us just how much you disagree with him.

Note that Gartner (and yourself most likely if you agree with everything an analyst has to say) also said that same of the Sony PSP and it's wealth of features. Fact is we can analyze all the facts and figures and bit rates and resolutions to death and we will still come to the same conclusion that it's fairly much a flop and the Nintendo DS puts it to shame. Sort of like the iPod is doing to all the other mp3 players out there! Now don't go getting confused, I don't own an iPod nor wish I had one, personally i don't have the need nor can I see myself spending so much money on something I wouldn't really use but that said, I can see that Apple definitely have something. It may not be easy to analyze into nice little figures but it's there.

Oh and "192 kb/sec" is not VBR, it's CBR. VBR, like the name suggests is VARIABLE.

#5 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 07:25:34 AM

It appears that Paul has slumped to new lows. I disagree with this review 100%. In fact, I am going to go on record and state this has to be one of the poorest and most uninformed reviews I have EVER read to date. It's a sad state of affairs, and I am actually embarassed to have this linked from our website.

Edit for absurd statistic: This pathetic review of the ZUNE (not iPod) mentions the "iPod" 66 times, and Apple "29" times. That equates to almost 100 free advertisements for Apple and Steve Jobs.

I think Paul is getting a little something on the side from Apple. If he isn't, he damn well should be.

This post was edited by AWBrian on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 at 07:46.

#6 By 2201 (212.117.228.133) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 08:48:07 AM

#4 re bitrate comment. Yeah but then again he never said either really. A variable bitrate still needs a point to be variable from, so saying "192Kbps" can still be VBR as well as CBR.

#7 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 08:55:48 AM

Oh, fun thread, this one...

#4, You're not hearing me man... you're listening, but you're not hearing me... - YEAH, it's variable, BUT just as I said, in Zune's market place, it's 192 kb/sec - well above iPod's!

I sure seem to hit a nerve - I'd bet a thick nickel that Chris is just about the same age as Paul with kids at home that are very young. That is very cool - being a parent, especially a Dad, is way more cool than any technology - like a free pass to horse around for a lot longer playing with the kids. That said, Chris, we're too old to even know what cool is anymore. We may have been at one time, but that time has long passed and parents with young kids won't even see cool, much less be cool, until they have a couple of them eying the car keys.

At our age, there is "cool" - what kids think they are, and then there is our kind of "cool" - which is limited to giving the kids enough room to let them become themselves. Where that break point occurs is pretty easy to find - it happens the first time we palm a dollar off coupon for the large pack of Huggies, and any hint of cool doesn't come back until we a) can't "hear" our kids' music and b) we don't even try to think we can. Having six "yard ducks" <un-trained soldiers... er... kids> from 12 to 28, being cool is defined as, "...cool, you got us a Zune... and leaving them alone to enjoy the music on it..."

Finally, #4, my assessment is based upon the efficacy of what I have seen - namely, "Loyalty and Rewards" induce a social behavior that works. We've supported the best in the business in this regard and process hundreds of millions of micro-transactions each day. If it works <silently and in the background> for snobs paying a 30% premium to shop at the top retail stores, it will work for the Zune - which enjoys a capability and an ecosystem specifically designed for it - cool people, however they define that, become an army of street level sales people that are essentially paid to do what is desired... for being cool. In a most effective way, Allard and without being seen in the room to spoil it all, Microsoft, are the parents who brought home a Zune, just as I did. If they have the discipline to give the kids some room - which they so far have done masterfully, the "music" and the kids will do the rest - which is where that 192 k will come in... a nice tidy fact that, trust me, kids, whether they know what it means or not, pick up on. 07 prediction, Allard will kick Jobs' backside and hard - the very second he realizes that he can't "hear" the music he's selling. I think he's smart enough to have done just that.

This post was edited by lketchum on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 at 09:09.

#8 By 1401 (69.27.196.125) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 09:13:59 AM

Paul gives the Zune two heads...

#9 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 09:34:34 AM

#7: Do you have a real job? I find it very interesting how you have seemingly used every piece of software and hardware MS has ever made, you're an expert in all of them and have nothing but good things to say about all of them, and have all the time in the world to write volumes on the subject. You're like a more erudite version of Parkkker, but an MS astroturfer all the same.

#10 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:08:59 AM

#9, Oh yes, a very big job - I run a company that builds and sustains technologies of every type - including production environments running not one, but seven *nix distros that process a great deal of information. I love the job - we get to see technology help people and work for them. We often use Microsoft's platforms and tools in order to achieve that, but frequently, we use many others and we mix them to find, build and sustain solutions. MAC, WIN, *Nix - doesn't matter - even tiny OS'es that control things like packing plants, or manufacturing... we run and build on all of them.

As such, our production centers have very diverse labs - our homes, much like many tech employees homes, serve as extensions of these labs. In my case, and in my company's case,
I set out many years ago to change how work was done. I fitted all our peoples' homes in much the same way - to use what we sell [all of it], and truly serve the market we supported - namely, SMB's or parts of really big companies. Their profiles were like my own - business owners, or managers with their own budgets and schedules and roles that were not fixed, but just as diverse.

So we test and integrate pretty much everything and having done so, we became very proficient at doing a great deal with a very few - just as our SMB customers have to do. I mean, you think that other late 40's early 50's business people don't have teens with birthdays and a passion for music? Whom do you think those owners ask when it comes to an MP3 player, or a CRM solution, or a custom vetical solution, or their spouse's tablet PC - handed down as a new one came in for the owner? The need and the questions cover it all and unless I have lab'd it and personally tested it and used it, I don't comment - I say, I don't, "yet" - then I do lab it and try and offer some help.

"MS astroturfer... LOLOLOL" that's pretty good. Well... this is "active WIN" - so it makes sense to offer relevant remarks, on topics in this community forum. I post as many, and in equally relevant ways, on other sites for E2K3, UMPC, and *nix interop. Posting here is part of my job in some sense. Part of that job is to scour the net for any and all news and to actually try and read it all. Most of us do that - spending hours each day/night in study, labs and endless tests of what we do. For those of us for whom it is not just a job, but a lifestyle <company>, we're really fortunate - work is just as much fun as play is - they are the same in our case.

Finally, you'd be surprised at how many people we end up helping through our labs and sites just like this. We keep that very quiet, but we are very sincere about it. As for the time spent? I don't much know what day it is, nor do I care. It's all way too fun and sleep is just weakness leaving the body - after some time, one needs very little. Reading and typing really fast helps a great deal, too. Oh, and screens... lot's of screens and PC's too - typically, we each run two to three systems at once - a BB SP6 for BES 4.0 on one and this note to you on one of three screens on another. Chairs with wheels help, too. Cheers!

This post was edited by lketchum on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 at 10:09.

#11 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:24:20 AM

Just to clarify: if you are on this site, then you are not "cool" by any definition.

Also, your young kids may think you're cool (mine do), but that is only because they don't know any better (yet).

#12 By 7390 (24.188.166.243) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:14:44 PM

On general principal alone I refuse to buy anything related to Apple. These guys sell OK hardware at a very high price.

I run every morning on a threadmill, I wanted a video/mp3 and couldn't bring myself to buy an Ipod. I bought Vision:M from creative. Most importantly it plays all of my music format, even those from Microsto, which the Ipod doesn't do.

To be honest I mostly play videos now, nothing better that runnin on a threadmill while watching beyonce shake her not so little.....butt that is a story for another day.

I will wait for version 2 of the Zune, by then it should be a great piece of equipment. I would guess by next summer or so.

I see these phucking lemmings with their Ipods, for the life of me I can't see what is the big about it.

squirt me all day baby...yeah..right here

#13 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:41:06 PM

The iPod is the most outdated player on the market. The only good thing going for it is marketing. Heck, it doesn't even play wma or wmv files.

#14 By 7390 (24.188.166.243) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:55:44 PM

I don't have a Zune, maybe someone that has one can answer this questions

1. Can I play a "squirted" song on my PC while my Zune is attached?
2. Have you heard anything about the Squirt hack?
3. Is this done over bluetooth?

#15 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 01:45:54 PM

no to bluetooth.

#16 By 3 (62.253.128.15) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 02:25:25 PM

#13 - you're right it doesn't play WMA or WMA files, like most users don't either which is why the ipod has been a success, it didn't matter if it played them or not. The marketing was great, the product was great and the software was great. Yes its slowed down a bit lately, but I'm pleased they haven't rushed in a new product like MS did with the Zune.

#17 By 37 (68.190.114.234) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 05:38:47 PM

Most users I know use WMA/WMV. And the proprietary file format of iTunes isn't any more convenient. Zune supports MP3 as well.

Everyone says Apple and MS rush their products. People have been saying that since the dawn of time.

What I see here is an excellent tool that MEETS and EXCEEDS the iPod features. Now MS is working on the backend to release Movies/Tvshows/Videos from the Video Marketplace for the Zune, as well as upcoming firmware/software updates enhancing zune's wireless abilities.

I already love the fact that I can sync my MS-DVR TV shows, Movies and Videos from my Media Center PC to the zune. Something the iPod isn't able to do.

#18 By 1401 (65.255.137.20) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 05:49:39 PM

#17 - how are you gonna watch your movies and tv shows with that horrible battery life?

#19 By 3 (62.253.128.15) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 05:51:29 PM

I don't disagree about the MS-DVR stuff at all, its a good feature. But again its one that failed to ignite any interest when the PMC's came out nearly 2 years ago. The problem was that device was rushed out too with poor hardware and buggy software. At the moment this goes for the Zune as well, and yes I do have one #1, Everyone just likes to assume I'm in love with the ipod, remember I don't have an ipod even though I do think they are good music players.

Zune is a better player for video, although even that part of the device isn't as good as it should have been either.

I jsut hope we don't have another PMC on our hands, at least with Allard there we can hope they get it right the 2nd time.

Instead of everyone wading in and accousing me/paul or anyone else who might actually have bad things to say about products the public pay a lot of money for, perhaps you should look into a lot of the comments from the consumers who have also been disappointed in it. Check even the Zune PR site, I mean Zune Insider.

This post was edited by Byron_Hinson[AW] on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 at 17:53.

#20 By 8556 (12.210.39.82) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 06:26:06 PM

As I wrote when Zune first was brought up here at Active Win, iPod has the momentum, the marketing, is the defacto standard and still has a coolness factor. Zune will fail by comparison, much as Linux fails to unseat Windows, which has the momentum and is the defacto standard at this point in time, on the desktop. Zune 2.0 may do better iin the future if the price is lowered greatly and Zune 2.0's features are superior, which at this time they are not.

#21 By 11888 (69.156.78.33) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 06:26:49 PM

I've been to Best Buy twice recently and tried to find these things to check them out. As far as I can tell they're not selling them. If I search the Best Buy Canada site I get:

"We were unable to find exact matches for your search: for Zune in Entire Site.

Please try your search again..."

Are they only in the US right now? I thought I read that they'd be in the US and Canada initially.

#22 By 37 (68.190.114.234) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 07:30:56 PM

Byron, my sister bought a zune this past weekend (Black Friday), so I was able to mess with it all weekend long, set it up for her and more. It was far better than the iPod in my experience, only at the current time does it have a lack of video/tv content for purchase.

#24 By 1401 (65.255.137.20) at Tuesday, November 28, 2006 08:33:48 PM

awbrian - you are the most rabid MS attack dog on the internet. This fact alone lends your credibility no weight whatsoever...

#25 By 21203 (12.42.230.226) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:36:20 AM

#18 - I just encoded some movies and travelled across country and played 2 full 90 minute movies and an hour of music before it gave me a warning.

I don't think I had a full charge though, a side effect of the packaging and going through airport security, I think I turned it on somewhere before checkin.

I must say though the video was -fantastic-.

#26 By 2960 (68.100.7.161) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 01:08:26 AM

I love my iPods.

And that's all I got to say about that :)

TL

#27 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 02:03:03 AM

to all those saying Zune will fail...

Can anyone give a few examples of where Microsoft went against an ENTRENCHED competitor and didn't end up with a solid market share leadership (the largest share of market amongst all competitors) before the end of the day?

I know I must be missing some obvious ones, but I'm at a loss at 1am to name any. Microsoft went against an entrenced Netscape, AOL, Oracle, Lotus, Novell, and and huge list of others... and ended up as the market share leader.

I suppose they barely have market share leadership in money management solutions against Intuit. And there are NEW competitions like ERP, CRM, and Search Engines... but surely we can all agree that those are still very much at early stages.

At later stages, we find products like Xbox (which appears on track to at least vie for market share leadership in this round).

Thoughts?

ps... apple fixed another 31 bugs this month. ouch. i just add that so that everyone can find a reason to reply to this post... even latch and his merry band.

This post was edited by mooresa56 on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 02:03.

#28 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 02:03:48 AM

#25, 23, Yes, we've seen similar battery life - at first it was hard to believe, but the Zune has exceeded every expectation we and the kids have had.

#24, I think a lot of us were looking for balance - not rave reviews. Instead, we read, saw and heard one pundit after another decide for the Zune long before any of them had seen one, much less tested it.

Worse, and from what I can tell, not one of the pundits had any experience in Loyalty and Rewards marketing. None seemed to have any experience whatever and none reflected an understanding of how the Zune would be the first device to work "with" content providers - not just by providing protection, but by providing a user rewards system that actually performed marketing and sales for them. In terms of "innovation" this alone should have been enough to have any pundit applauding the Zune - even if it were pure crap technically - which it surely is not.

There is more...with Universal's and others' agreements with Apple coming due soon - Universal will probably seek a piece of each iPod sold - Microsoft stepped up and is paying and as such, gained access to one of the largest catalogs available. Remember at this point, this is paid by Microsoft and its Zune costs no more than a comparable iPod video. In other words, the cost was not passed onto consumers, but consumers gained the benefit - access to the catalog without paying any more for it.

So from where we sit, we have seen a lot of pundits, for one reason or another, decide ahead of time that they did not like the Zune. There was no analysis of the product - no real tests and certainly no analysis of the business or behaviors that the Zune and the Zune Marketplace were going to work with. Instead we saw them photocopy the feature set and watched as they glad handed one another over how cleverly they were decrying the Zune's demise.

That's not objective. It's not journalism and its not professional. Forget fair - no one asked for, or expected fair - this is after all, business.

Now the pros at Microsoft will work harder, leverage the platform, extend its capabilities and define how companies can work with content owners. Allard will pump his mountain bike riding legs like a mad man and while Apple and Co., lemmings in hand, have been dsitracted by the iTalk phone, it will already have been too late for the existing iPod and it will lose more market share to the Zune than anyone has predicted... all this right as Windows Vista, Xbox Live, and Soapbox close the circle around Apple - not one Boa, baby, but a freaking hyrda and Apple has what? iTalk - yeah, step into that arena, Apple.

The iTalk... man it will be sexy, too - BUT, sexy does not easily work in the mobile phone space. There is so much more to solving this one and once again, Microsoft, Verizon and others are going to lead as mobile entertainment fuses with communications. It is also helpful to note that Verizon's new video content WILL NOT be ported or play in iTunes - they have no intention of supporting iTalk, which in my opinion, will be the big flop of 2007. The Zune phone? You watch - this is Gates' last, "take em to the woodshed" walk. He's serious about "Unified Communications" and he has all the platform components in place. It isn't about phones, either - it is about "your PC" or "my PC" being with me all the time - and any host device becoming that PC - regardless of device, output panels, location, or network a profile from an OS not just "on" but "in" the cloud - where host OSes with common objects and "guest" software let one do as one wishes to do - e.g., they can all do all things, but "my PC" has rights to it and during "my session" from "my PC" it does it. That PC, by the way, will look a lot like a Zune.

#29 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 06:52:45 AM

mram, don't confuse chrishedlund with facts. It just makes his head spin.

#30 By 8556 (12.207.97.148) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:19:30 AM

#27: You asked for exampled where MS went up against entrenched competitors and "didn't end up with a solid market share leadership", ie: #1.
Money vs. Quicken,
MSN (Live) Search vs. Google,
MSN IM vs. AIM,
MS Accounting vs. Quick Books,
Windows Mobile vs, Symbian (phones),
Other bombs:
Microsoft BOB, Web TV, Slate (web), and more.

Don't mistake failed efforts with failure. Like other established companies, MS tries what they can to grow. Thats what business's do. While Windows and Office still are the pillars of MS, new products will eventually come along that take off.

#31 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:22:30 AM

Money vs. Quicken - Agreed
MSN (Live) Search vs. Google - Live Search hasn't even been out a year.
MSN IM vs. AIM - MSN/Windows Live IM is crushing AIM in number of users.
MS Accounting vs. Quick Books - MS Accounting has been out only a year.

Funny how you think things should happen over night. You do know the difference between long term and short term goals, right?

#32 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 10:52:19 AM

#31: You asked for a list and then still make excuses for MS. The credibility comment made earlier rings true. When you are a zealot it taints everything you say. Sure, there may be some truth to what you say, but it gets lost in the propaganda. This reminds me of those who vote straight party ballots during elections...

#33 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:30:28 AM

ch, what are you talking about? I didn't ask for any stinking list. Get your reading glasses on. And I have made no excuses for anyone. Post back when you figure out what you are talking about.

#34 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:00:45 PM

#33: Sorry, you didn't ask for a list, mooresa56 did. I apologize for confusing mooresa56's zealotry for yours. However, you eagerly jumped in on the list excuse making, by adding the "product age" and "difference between goals" conditions, so the rest of my comment still applies.

(It's so hard to keep the MS zealots straight these days. They all sound the same you know.)

#35 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:53:38 PM

It's almost as hard as keeping track of the anti MS open source shills such as yourself! But nobody is complaining ;-)

#36 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 01:11:47 PM

moron (aka ch). STOP and READ my comment. Beyond getting the authors incorrect, you obviously have some issue with comprehension as well.

I made reference myself that "product age" was a reasonable filter on the list... when I said...

"but surely we can all agree that those are still very much at early stages."

So, where is your list? You talk alot, but you listen very little.

Seeing bobsireno's reply (thanks, btw) furthers my contention that MSFT wins these battles in the end. Breaking down the list, I gotta take BOB and WebTV out... as there is no clear market let alone market leader (MSFT or anybody else). And Money/Quicken was already mentioned (by me). MS Accounting is barely even launched.

So the list looks something like:

- Windows Mobile versus Symbian - I think that meets the criteria. Its definitely not a new battle, and Microsoft clearly hasnt acheived market leader status. Its a great fight, and is far from over... but bobsireno is right.

- MSN IM - yeah, I think that one qualifies too. Same reasons as WindowsMobile versus Symbian. Long fight, and MSFT isnt the clear winner.

Any others?

This post was edited by mooresa56 on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 13:13.

#37 By 23275 (68.17.42.38) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 01:46:50 PM

#36, I think Windows Mobile really is the clear winner in one important context - there are eleven (11) times the number of Windows Mobile and SmartPhone Edition users as there are Black Berry users. That was not always the case. Since my company has phones drop shipped to it for configuration for customers and we support both secure, through the air, active sync and direct "push" we have seen this conversion to Windows Mobile.

All users loved the Windows Mobile OS, but it took form factors like the Moto Q to tip it. Since that device hit the market, all but one last hold-out dumped BB. Others like the Dash, are almost as good. So for mobile professionals, there is a clear choice and it is Windows Mobile connected to Exchange 2003 Server.

In IM, it is LCS 2005 and Office Communicator Client and Mobile that professionals use - NOT/NOT any public IM. In that space, Microsoft is the very clear leader and with things like advanced presence awareness, I do not blame them on bit - it really does rock and one can add a presence token to any .NET app - and we do. This allows people to see who is availbale for what, when and how to reach them - including by voice, video, etc...
We use it in our shop and apps and I love it - TLS, our own ROOT CA and web proxy, etc... it is secure, only and this is the only way many companies will use or allow IM.

This post was edited by lketchum on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 13:51.

#38 By 37 (67.37.29.142) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 01:49:26 PM

MSN/Windows Live IM is the worlds most popluar IM client.

#39 By 8556 (12.207.97.148) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 02:33:54 PM

AWBrian: You nailed me on the Windows Live Messenger. My bad. Sorry. AIM sucks.

#40 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 03:02:23 PM

#35: It's almost as hard as keeping track of the anti MS open source shills such as yourself! But nobody is complaining ;-)

Anti-MS, open source shill?!? Really? lol. Once again a MS zealot sees it only in black and white.

My position and posts here are definitely not from an extreme position unlike yours. If I'm so anti-MS, as you believe, why would I own MS stock? Why would I use MS products? Why would I develop MS solutions? You confuse critical commentary as "anti MS open source" because it doesn't align with your extremist, does no wrong, pro-MS position. I have praised MS for their superb dev tools (and especially SQL Server). In the same way, I have been critical of IE and also of the featuritis and bloat of Office. I use Firefox and a handful of open source dev tools, so I would hardly be a candidate for "open source shill", but I guess not being 100% MS-only qualifies me for such.

#36: moron (aka ch).

Hmmm... I don't know if I have a comeback for that. Let me check with my 7 year old and find out what the appropriate retort is for being called a "moron".

#41 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 03:09:57 PM

#27 and #30 have touched on MS's strength: competition. When they have to buy or build a product to compete they do much better than just dreaming stuff up. They are much, much better at reacting to the market than creating the market.

#42 By 37 (68.190.114.234) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 04:35:49 PM

Good questions CH. BTW:

Once again a Open Source zealot sees it only in black and white.

And if I was an MS zealot, why would I be using some NON MS software, NON MS hardware, have a NON MS gaming console, use a NON MS search engine, use NON MS property management system, use/deploy/purchase NON MS Point of Sales systems.

I have been more critical of MS than you could possibly imagine.

So I guess not using 100% open source qualifies me as an MS Zealot. Please don't post back until you have the facts. Making up stuff like you are now can normally be found in MY 7 year old son Dakotah. Last time he did that, he wasn't able to use his NON MS Nintendo GAMEBOY as well. (of course, since he is in elementary school and the teachers are teaching him how to use Windows, he MUST be an MS zealot too?)

You confuse my support for the zune (which I have actually USED) and my admiration for it's features that are beyond the iPod to be shilling for MS.

I have been critical of countless MS products. If you are wanting to go back and forth, I will take the time to put the list together, but I think that would exceed the character limit of our comments section.

But hey, it's you who has their head stuck in the ground, not I.

This post was edited by AWBrian on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 16:41.

#43 By 37 (68.190.114.234) at Wednesday, November 29, 2006 04:37:00 PM

"#41 By ch (302 Posts) at 11/29/2006 3:09:57 PM [Delete | Nullify]
#27 and #30 have touched on MS's strength: competition. When they have to buy or build a product to compete they do much better than just dreaming stuff up. They are much, much better at reacting to the market than creating the market. "

I think that is Google's mission statement as well.

#44 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at Thursday, November 30, 2006 03:51:58 PM

ch - " don't know if I have a comeback for that"

how about you add a product to the list?

I gave two product categories where MSFT has been competing for more than 1 year, and where they haven't reached market leader status. Although lketchum makes good arguments that those don't even qualify.

So, can you give me a third one? Because if you can't then I think HISTORY tells us alot about how this Zune/iPod competition will go.

#45 By 13030 (198.22.121.110) at Friday, December 01, 2006 11:27:36 AM

#44: how about you add a product to the list?

Microsoft Dynamics, the software previously known as Microsoft Business Solutions with pieces originating from Great Plains over five years ago... still not the market leader.

Gaming consoles. World-wide or domestic, Sony still has the lead over the past several years.

I would also propose the free e-mail market. (Where's my research assistant NotParker when I need him?)

#46 By 37 (76.210.78.134) at Friday, December 01, 2006 02:11:52 PM

For the record, Hotmail/Windows Live Mail is number 1 for web email. Secondly, with the Xbox 360 pushing almost 10 million units this month to the PS3's 500,000 by the end of the month (speaking of a failure, nothing but problems with the overpriced PS3), I would have to say, MS is sitting good in both categories.

#47 By 3 (62.253.128.15) at Friday, December 01, 2006 05:40:00 PM

#46 - wasn't that only because when they bought Rocketmail it was a company already at number one (if not close), that means it didn't do it itself. Also I'm still not sure that hotmail is the most used mail system, for actual sending of mail I still think it might be yahoo. I have a hotmail account only for passport, never use it for mailing.

As for the Xbox 360, while I have nothing but praise for it, giving a judgement on the PS3 marketshare against the 360 right now is just silly as it clearly won't be the leader there and as for the nothing but problems, its the same amount as hit the first 360 shipments, except lets hope Sony don't cover it up as much as MS did.

This post was edited by Byron_Hinson[AW] on Friday, December 01, 2006 at 17:43.

#48 By 3653 (68.52.143.149) at Saturday, December 02, 2006 01:58:38 AM

"As for the Xbox 360... it clearly won't be the leader there"

I would have agreed until every single launch fear of Sony's was fully realized. i think this is Microsoft's market to lose, at this point. Time will tell. Sony is simply gonna have to cut that price by $200 ASAP, and that just isn't likely.

Re: hotmail. Yes, it was popular when bought in 1996, but there wasnt exactly a defined "free email" market at the time. That purchase was incredibly forward-thinking. And innovation through acquisition is fair game. Hell, google and apple buy half their "new features" too. Did google create their mapping solution? Nope.

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