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Microsoft execs saw problems with early Vista

Time: 00:12 EST/05:12 GMT | News Source: WinBeta | Posted By: Kenneth van Surksum

Even some of Microsoft Corp.'s top officials struggled to make Windows Vista work smoothly when it was released, according to internal e-mails released Wednesday.

The messages, unsealed in a lawsuit against the company, show that Vista's early problems with hardware and software compatibility affected more than just average PC users. The e-mails also illustrate how the company will try to avoid such issues in the next Windows release.

"We need to be clearer with industry, and we need to decide what we will do and do that well and 100 percent and not just do a little of everything," wrote Steven Sinofsky, the Microsoft executive who took over Windows engineering after Vista's retail release in January 2007.

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Displaying Comments 1 through 52 of 52

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#1 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:41:19 AM

Yes, Vista could have used a few more months of polish, but it had to be RC1ed by early September so that Valentine could leave MS and collect his signing bonus from Amazon. And MS went along with this. It makes no sense, but I'm sure it had something to do with innovation, serving consumers better or bringing choice to the marketplace.

This post was edited by Latch on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 13:59.

#2 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:45:02 AM

Obviously no other software company has every released a new version of its product with any known problems. Only the money hungry Microsoft and its evil execs could ever dare to do such a fiendish thing.

L2RealWorld

#3 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 08:59:51 AM

I really love the usual response of the Microsoft fanboy. It usually goes something like 'Other companies do evil thing X, so it is okay for Microsoft to do evil thing X as well.' So I guess Microsoft can go and kill your entire family, and you'd be okay with it, if some other company can be shown to have done it also? This has to be one of the dumbest arguments the fanboy contingent constantly pulls out of their collective back ends.

Edit: Damn typos.

This post was edited by MysticSentinel on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 09:00.

#4 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 09:08:26 AM

MrHumpty has fallen off his wall onto the Microsoft side, that's for sure. He's got an explanation/apology for every MS mis-step. It's hilarious to watch him equate Vista being pushed out early due to greed with any software release from any company. And I agree with you that it's unfortunate that the apologist crowd will always try to frame MS in the best possible light, with any rationalization they can dream up.

#5 By 29664 (38.116.145.116) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 09:48:15 AM

Off topic but, how do i see older news from this site? Looking for an article from last week and I'll I can see is today's, sometimes yesterday's news.

#6 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 09:55:58 AM

#5: As much as I'll get lambasted here for this suggestion, try using Google. I've found ActiveWin articles going back years by using Google.

#7 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 09:55:58 AM

No I don't see a Microsoft misstep and immediately believe its due to the evil tendancies of a publicly held company.

I know that there was a lot of internal turmoil about Vista. They were chasing deadlines trying to do everything they had set out to do. Is it really anything resembling a surprise that they were worried about releasing an OS that required a significiant portion of the the installed PC base to upgrade their hardware? Is it surprising that actions were taken to ensure the existing pc sales didn't drop to the floor as Vista was on the Horizon.

Personally I feel bad for people who went the cheap road when purchasing a PC and I would have preferred that Microsoft have Vista <VersionName> Ready Stickers (Boy can you imagine the confusion that would have caused). But in all honesty, DON'T BUY MICROSOFT. While Latch thinks that Money is the only movitator he forgets that the lack of it is also a very movitating factor. Consumers have forgotten that the fastest way to send a message to a company is through their dollar not their congressman or friendly neighborhood lawyer.

And frankly the lawsuit on a legal stance is worthless because, and lets all face it, those computers can run Vista. Just not the version some people want. Do I feel bad for them? Yes. Do I wish Microsoft would have done it better? Yes. Do I think that both Microsoft and the Consumer buying the cheapest PC possible with the logo were movitiated by money? Yes.

In the end consumers about to spend $1k or more on a piece of equipment should spend an hour or two doing a little research rather than just looking at a sticker. This applies to everything not just Microsoft's products.

#8 By 3746 (216.16.225.210) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:03:30 AM

#4

No piece of software is ever 100 percent complete or without bugs. So who gets to decided when a piece of software is ready to go out the door? It is a tried and true practice in the software industry to get things as good as they can and then let it loose. The early adopters are paying testers to some degree. Part of the fun of being and early adopter is you never know how deep the shite is you are jumping into. If you don't like this kind of hassle then don't put yourself in that situation.

The fact that mrhumpty is getting at is that anti-MS fanboys such as yourself go nuts when MS makes the slightest misstep. When it is one of the things you love then you give them a pass. I mean where was all the outrage at the initial OS X releases which were way bigger piles then Vista ever will be. If you are outraged that software gets sent out the door in beta state then apply it evenly. If you don't you just end up being as bad as any other fanboy who can't stop and look at things objectively.

This post was edited by kaikara on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 10:06.

#9 By 60455 (68.186.182.236) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:05:33 AM

What are the goals here?

Take a look at what my Dad wrote last May. He was dead on, and all he had was access to a limited look at the driver model (the same look all of you had) http://blog.libertech.net/blogs/lketchum/archive/2007/05/25/windows-vista-home-basic-why-gdi-persists.aspx

Ironically, he was trying to help people understand Vista and how using Aero actually helps performance. Similarly, he was trying to help people understand how Microsoft was supporting customers by supporting the manufacturers, OEM's and partners as they started (late) to build around the new OS.

All of this gets missed, perhaps intentionally, and the discussion falls into using this to justify a judgement that we have a bad Vista and or a bad Microsoft. Why?

It's just incredible and especially so to see this kind of behavior among IT Professionals and enthusiasts. What little terds we all have become. If we're not careful, we're going to bring about the dreadful world so many seem to be wishing for.

#10 By 29664 (38.116.145.116) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:26:54 AM

#7 Thanks
trouble is I don't know what I'm looking for -I saw something neat I wanted to follow up on and now I can't remember what it was. too darn busy I guess :)

I was hoping to just browse back through the articles again. I bet there's a way to google for 'old articles' but I have no idea what the syntax would be.

I feel like a double idiot.

#11 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:32:21 AM

Geez, are all you guys being deliberately obtuse???? I'm not railing on how they released buggy code early. That's hardly a problem unique to MS. I'm going off because Valentine prematurely badged Vista as RC1 so he could bail and collect his signing bonus from Amazon. He apparently wasn't allowed to leave MS until he signed off on Vista as RC1. He had to be at Amazon by Sept 11 or he would forfeit 1.7 million. His greed got the better of him and he signed off early to cash the cheque. All of you should have a problem with this as well, as it shows a fundamental problem with their process. But instead, being MS apologists to the core, all you can do is spin this as just another buggy MS release.

#9: The acorn didn't fall far from the tree, did it?

This post was edited by Latch on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 13:59.

#12 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:40:20 AM

#11: You're such a sapling!

#13 By 60455 (68.186.182.236) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:41:57 AM

@11, Obtuse? With a head apparently made of bone and a mind as quick as clay, you seem to have missed the part where the decision was made because a) they needed to send a strong signal that they were actually going to ship and b) that despite more work, they could (and did) meet the goals set.

#14 By 8556 (12.208.163.138) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 10:58:08 AM

Tritium: You would do well to not judge IT people as a group. The legal issues around ‘Vista Ready” hardware were not caused by IT people.

Also, kindly do not presume that the average Windows user reads any technical missive on operating systems. They just want their PC to work with little effort on their part. I don’t recall Microsoft mentioning Vista Basic in their “the Wow is Now” ad campaign even though the free upgrades from XP Home Vista Ready PC’s were for Vista Basic. This added to consumer confusion as Aero was what MS focused on in the TV ads. At my business we told our customers that the Vista upgrade coupons were for Vista Basic. I doubt this was mentioned to too many retail customers that purchased XP loaded PCs with Vista Ready stickers at big box stores.

In their push to commercialize Vista, MS made some business decisions that turned out to be tactical errors that in our litigious society will now cost them some money. No big deal.

#15 By 92283 (64.180.201.131) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:09:35 AM

Latch,

Valentine left on September 5.

Vista RTM'd November 8.

You are only out by 63 days and 63 IQ points.

http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/11/08/windows-vista-releases-to-manufacturing.aspx

http://play.tm/wire/click/1160958

This post was edited by NotParkerToo on Thursday, February 28, 2008 at 11:11.

#16 By 3746 (216.16.225.210) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 11:50:18 AM

#15

Lets see how Latch spins this.

#17 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:04:42 PM

No spin. I made a mistake and typed RTM instead of RC1. While I know none of the true believers will, you can read up on it here:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/02/21/1853257&from=rss

#18 By 92283 (64.180.201.131) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:22:33 PM

An RC is NOT an RTM.

You are underqualified for coffee fetching, let alone discussing issues concerning software development.

What a waste of space you are Latch.

#19 By 3746 (216.16.225.210) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:35:40 PM

#17

I read what you posted but it doesn't contain any evidence that this is what happened. The only evidence was that he had to be at amazon by September 11 06 but not that he signed off on RC1 early in order to get there. There are many questions that would need to be answered to prove this including whether the release would have stayed on the same schedule if he hadn't of left. Plus, is there any evidence to show that he was the only one in charge of signing off on Betas, RC and RTM's? Also, why would he not have just left when he wanted to. Signing off on the RC doesn't mean that the software development was done by any means. Was it in his employment contract that he couldn't leave until the development was done to a certain point?

I am not saying that your wrong. It is certainly plausible but with the lack of evidence just about anything is. In the end the result is just conjecture.

#20 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:42:34 PM

Thank you again, Captain Obvious. I'm aware of the difference. I mistyped. What did you not understand about me saying I made a mistake? You certainly make enough of them to the point where the vast majority of your posts are edited. One big difference between us is that, when I make a mistake, I can admit it. Unfortunately, I've given you an excuse to completely avoid the issue I brought up and instead, you will nitpick a typo to death to ensure you don't have to actually spin about Brian's bailout.

#21 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 12:46:08 PM

#19: I agree that all the dots aren't connected and there is lots of supposition, but to me it doesn't pass the smell test. Unless Valentine comes out and admits it, which is very unlikely, there will likely never be a smoking gun unless some emails get found during discovery in a future court case.

#22 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 01:18:59 PM

#14 Couldn't agree more. Though I wonder what extra confusion would have been created if there were coupons & stickers for all versions. Would it have been better... tbh I don't know since coupons and stickers were out before the public or retailers really understood the differences between the versions.

In the end it was a mixture of alot of things that caused the outcome. Manfacturers being late to the game which could have been caused by MS not providing spec's early enough before Alphas/Betas etc. Confusion was going to occurr in any case imo. I still don't believe that legal action regarding the stickers is valid. You can put vista on those machines just not the version you may want. Caused a tiny bit of damage to the consumer and to MS but nothing overly measurable.

#23 By 92283 (64.180.201.131) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 01:33:42 PM

A typo? You used RTM 3 different times in 2 different posts.

More like a deliberate lie.

#24 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 01:58:41 PM

#23: Yes, and once again I'll say I meant to use RC1. Is there some special way I need to say this to get you to understand? Are you are being stupid on purpose so you can continue to avoid having to make any meaningful comment and instead you keep hammering on RTM vs RC1 just like I predicted you would? Actually, your brain probably isn't large enough to understand, so I'll fix it for you.

#25 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 02:10:21 PM

Now that the emails are coming out, it's clear that even high-level execs knew Vista was ass. Here is one of my favourite quotes:

"Massive change in the underpinnings for video and audio really led to a poor experience at RTM, especially with respect to Windows Media Center."

- Steven Sinofsky

Yet we had Master Apologist Ketchum telling us for months (until he ran away) that Vista was perfect and anyone with a complaint was an idiot or part of the world-wide media anti-MS conspiracy. The truth always comes out in the end.

#26 By 8556 (12.208.163.138) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 02:38:07 PM

Latch: I run Vista Basic on two of my PCs. I personally never thought it was ass. I find UAC annoying. But, I have tweaked the settings on SP1 and find it tolerable now. You are, however, entitled to your opinion about Vista even though others may disagreeably disagree with you. Fact is MS screwed up a lot with Vista from day one, and they know it. However, Vista is evolving into a very nice operating system. Eventually, gamers will adopt it, or its descendant, as the OS of choice, as happened with XP which was totally ass when it came out.

#27 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 02:49:25 PM

"Obviously no other software company has every released a new version of its product with any known problems. Only the money hungry Microsoft and its evil execs could ever dare to do such a fiendish thing."

Still applies there Latch. In a company with so many "execs" and other developers working with thousands of partners I'd think there was something seriously wrong if they didn't have detracters.

Honestly they were getting a product out the door finally after pushing back release dates.

Also, I'd love to see a release of any MS Product that the Anti-MS lapdogs would say "hey it was ready and look its actually quite decent." They will never satisfy the likes of you and the Tech press so my guess is they don't gauge their success that way.

#28 By 3653 (65.80.181.153) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 02:56:09 PM

To be fair, latch&1splenda only fumbled RC1/RTM because he was so focused on using words he doesn't understand like "obtuse". You can't blame him for wanting to up his profile around here. A quick tip latch, just because the guy you're pouring coffee for says a "smart" word like 'obtuse'... doesn't mean you have to push it into your next AW post. Stare at the word and its definition for a little while, and try to work it into your conversation over time.

Now get back to pourin'...

tritium - welcome to AW

#29 By 143 (65.221.158.226) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 03:22:21 PM

It all depends on what "is" is.

#30 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 03:33:33 PM

#27: Detractors?!?! Sinofsky was the flipping head of Windows development. When he says it's ass, it's ass. Keep spinning and you'll create a rift in space-time that you might not escape from. If you had been around here longer than 10 minutes, you'd know that I generally don't have a problem with MS products. Some of what they create is quite nice, some is meh and some is garbage. My focus is on their unethical & sometimes illegal business practices. I'm railing against Vista because of the happyface spin MS tries to put on it, and the constant barrage of fanboy spin (most of that left with Ketchum, now there's only a handful of hardcore microbots left here, including yourself.)

#28: Good old mini-moore. Nothing to add of substance other than snipes from the sidelines. But then that's to be expected when you can't counter anything I've said and have to instead rely on ad hominem attacks to be heard. Keep trying and one day you'll be able to debate with the big boys instead of squeaking like a mouse from under parkkker's skirt.

#31 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 03:44:23 PM

#27: Also, I'd love to see a release of any MS Product that the Anti-MS lapdogs would say "hey it was ready and look its actually quite decent."

Microsoft SQL Server 2005. Right out of the gate, it was solid, minimal bugs, very few security or other patches released for it, and it worked as advertised.

#32 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 04:36:18 PM

#30 Rarely has their ever been a head of Windows development that has been happy with the current release. Just kinda used to it so its not a firestorm to me. Most of what the general public believes is garbage I usually don't agree. Its simply because I use and maintain them. Hell I ran NT4 servers and found them quite reliable as long as they were administered well and drivers were solid.

I've rolled out Vista internally and know many companies currently using Vista. The only problems I run into revolve around software running on vista that's still writing to the program files directory etc. The "Click to Allow" crowd are simply using their computers incorrectly and as much as many don't like it... its forced users and administrators to train themselves or their users to actually not do things you shouldn't be doing on a daily basis.

Believe me I don't love all things Microsoft (Liquid Motion r.i.p.). But I also don't see Microsoft doing something that all other companies do and immediately think its horrible. I don't look at things Microsoft does and not realize that they are not godlike in their abilities and are run by mere humans. I don't think that just because their products are useful and others want to integrate with them that I should lobby for my government to put a gun to their head and force them to do anything. I believe in the right to life, liberty, and property. That includes Companies. I believe the only force that should be applied to companies is the dollar and that force is applied by consumers. I believe the Government should only ever get involved in the case of Fraud.

You believe that if its for the greater good it should be forced. You believe that IP is not property and should not be subject to the same consideration as regular property. You haven't the slightest idea what it takes to support software or public API's.

You make me giggle and I enjoy reading your dribble.

#33 By 3746 (72.12.161.38) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 05:11:15 PM

#32

Don't bother arguing with latch too much. He is under the belief that if you say something positive about MS or Vista you must be a fanboy or a shill. This comes from a guy who admittedly has very little hands on experience with Vista and gets all his Vista info over at slashdot.

I am in agreement with you. I have spent hundreds of hours configuring and using Vista. Was everything perfect out of the gate? Not at all. Could the launch been handled better? Of course it could of. Is Vista on release or 1 year later with SP1 a steaming pile of crap that some people make it out to be? Of course it isn't. But you try and relate that to people and they will only believe what they want.

#34 By 82766 (202.154.80.82) at Thursday, February 28, 2008 06:02:09 PM

I find all these postings (ok mainly latch's) very funny because this is all very old news and unrelated to the reality we live in now. We're also talking the time period of when Sinofsky took over the Windows dept.

If my memory serves me right, Sinofsky was in charge of Office when Vista was being made, tested and released. So Sinofsky can say whatever he likes about the development process of Vista because he wasn't involved with it.

Remember that Sinofsky is an enitrely different guy to Allchin!! and we've seen that already with "next to no news" leaking out of the Windows divisions.

I think we all agree that Vista at RTM had limited drivers available but the reality is thats a year ago... when you catch up with now, its easy to realise its a far better situation.

And for the short memory people... XP had exactly the same problems when it was released.

#35 By 102808 (67.189.201.112) at Friday, February 29, 2008 05:08:43 AM

#30: So it's OK for you to rail on some one for not providing "substance" in calling you out for your misuse of "obtuse," but it is OK for you to call some one out for their article formatting (and, I believe, only their formatting), as you did with Ketchum not too long ago? Don't think your comments there were of any substance.

I am a huge MS supporter, but, as Sinofsky's emails imply, Vista was a less then stellar release in several ways and the company has been paying for it ever since.

#36 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Friday, February 29, 2008 08:28:32 AM

#32: You are Lloyd Ketchum and I claim my $5.

Rarely has their ever been a head of Windows development that has been happy with the current release.

And you would know this how? That's a pretty sweeping statement that implies oyu have some inside knowledge.

You believe that if its for the greater good it should be forced.

Is that right? That's new to me.

You believe that IP is not property and should not be subject to the same consideration as regular property.

Really? That doesn't sound like something I'd believe.

#33: He is under the belief that if you say something positive about MS or Vista you must be a fanboy or a shill. This comes from a guy who admittedly has very little hands on experience with Vista and gets all his Vista info over at slashdot.

Um, no. I'm of the belief that if you constantly attempt to whitewash MS's bad deeds and are forever making excuses for them, that's what makes you a fanboy.

#34: Now this guy is a true apologist: "This new is old and nobody cares and everyone should just forget about it." Uh-huh. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

#35: I'm sorry, did you say something, Mr. One Post? For one, I did not misuse the word 'obtuse'. You're pretty confused if you're taking your vocabulary lessons from mini-moore. From Webster:

Obtuse

2 a: lacking sharpness or quickness of sensibility or intellect : insensitive, stupid
b: difficult to comprehend : not clear or precise in thought or expression

You haven't been around long enough to know that I will rarely throw the first stone when it comes to insults or nitpicking.

I will give you credit for pointing out the obvious in your last sentence.

#37 By 23275 (68.186.182.236) at Friday, February 29, 2008 09:10:10 AM

#36, Latch, obsess much? No he's not. Don't know Humpty, but the man does have some sense and does present solid arguments - he has been kicking your butt - about as thoroughly as my youngest daughter has (yeah, Trit is a girl <sorry, young lady>) and a great engineer.

If you want to argue with me personally, you know where to find me - it isn't hard.

When you want to solve problems and approach Vista, or any OS with the goal of making it work and actually helping people, then we can discuss things. That is what this, and places like it used to be about - sharing an understanding and derived solutions.

Read what I wrote last May... I think it is relevant, and objective. http://blog.libertech.net/blogs/lketchum/archive/2007/05/25/windows-vista-home-basic-why-gdi-persists.aspx

#38 By 28801 (65.90.202.10) at Friday, February 29, 2008 09:14:02 AM

Nice to have you back Lloyd.

#39 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Friday, February 29, 2008 09:35:39 AM

#37: Latch, obsess much? No he's not. Don't know Humpty, but the man does have some sense and does present solid arguments - he has been kicking your butt - about as thoroughly as my youngest daughter has (yeah, Trit is a girl <sorry, young lady>) and a great engineer.

I knew if I poked you enough you'd come out of hiding. As for Humpty, what is he, one of your sons? He sure has your exact mentality and for some strange reason he uses some of the same speech idioms you do. And he's kicking my butt, is he? I must have missed that part. All I saw was me nailing him on point, and him coming back again and again with philosophical pronouncements on the Vista ecosystem etc -- just like you used to do.

If you want to argue with me personally, you know where to find me - it isn't hard.

Where, on your blog with the comments disabled?

When you want to solve problems and approach Vista, or any OS with the goal of making it work and actually helping people, then we can discuss things. That is what this, and places like it used to be about - sharing an understanding and derived solutions.

Sorry, but it's not up to you to define the framework of debate around here. I'd much rather discuss Microsoft as it relates to their bad corporate citizenship, unethical business practices, illegal interference with competitors, flouting of antitrust law, subversion of global standards bodies, etc. The fact that you don't like addressing any MS dirty laundry is not my problem, nor is it a poor topic for discussion.

Read what I wrote last May... I think it is relevant, and objective.

Nothing you write is objective when it comes to MS, just like most here including myself.

#40 By 102839 (12.14.115.254) at Friday, February 29, 2008 09:36:14 AM

#36: "I'm sorry, did you say something, Mr. One Post?" Yes, I did, Mr. 1850 Posts. What's your point?

"You haven't been around long enough to know that I will rarely throw the first stone when it comes to insults or nitpicking." First, how do you know how long I've been around? Second, I guess it's OK to hurl instults as long as you do it rarely? And since I only have 1 post, as you so cleverly pointed out, I shall have to remember that.

"I will give you credit for pointing out the obvious in your last sentence." What a nasty person you are. I wonder if you're like this in person.

#41 By 23275 (68.186.182.236) at Friday, February 29, 2008 09:50:44 AM

#39, Wrong again, but MrHumpty, if I had to guess, is a man that obviously has been around the industry for a while and he's probably signed the front side of a check or two [million].

You certainly can register and comment all day and you're welcome to - provided you are polite and kind to others.

Latch, human beings develop technologies - so it is quite natural for the underlying motivations to reflect a very human element. After all, and by definition, technologies enhance human performance, or advance the human condition [or both]. Why then are you surprised to find very human motivations and references among that which reflects back on technology? Why develop them absent that?

Humpty presents a very realistic and sober argument and he doesn't see MS, or any other company as being fundamentally evil. You seem to. On one side we see people with his understanding and working to offer solutions. On your side we continue to see a very different and negative approach to a great many things - Vista being only one of them.

#42 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Friday, February 29, 2008 10:38:21 AM

#40: I will remind you that you attacked me when I had never said anything against you, and now you're playing the victim. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. And no, I have no idea how long you've been here but I am wondering why you seem to need to create a new login every time you post.

#41: Humpty presents a very realistic and sober argument and he doesn't see MS, or any other company as being fundamentally evil. You seem to. On one side we see people with his understanding and working to offer solutions. On your side we continue to see a very different and negative approach to a great many things - Vista being only one of them.

I've never seen MS as fundamentally evil. I believe they have an entrenched corporate culture that subscribes to the theory of "the ends justify the means", and this, combined with their arrogance that is product of their market dominance, has led them to their many ethics problems and antitrust issues over the past 2 decades. Your a solutions man. What is your solution to the problem of MS subverting the ISO process? What is your solution to MS bribing partners to scuttle competitors deals? What is your solution to the 45 infringement cases that MS is currently fighting? What is your solution to MS constant patent FUD against Linux? What is your solution to MS chronic lip service about interoperability when their actions clearly show a great reluctance to afford said interoperability? I could go on and on. I want MS to be better, and I'm not talking about Vista or any other MS product.

This post was edited by Latch on Friday, February 29, 2008 at 10:51.

#43 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:11:53 AM

#36 I'll take your first comment as a compliment from what I've read of Lloyd's over the years.

And you would know this how?

Well. I had an employee who's Sister was very high up in MS Office Development. My Wife's college friend has bounced about many projects at MS and a friend of mine has been working with developers at MS for quite some time. Do I have photocopies of e-mails/faxes/memo's? No. But I can assure you that every release of almost every project at MS has plenty of people wishing and some upset they could have done more before the deadline to clean things up or provide better/more reliable functionality.

That doesn't sound like something I'd believe.

Its one thing to say you believe in the right of an individual or company to protect and choose how to release and license its IP. Its a blatent contridiction to believe that any entity can force one to do so through the threat of force unless the motivation is purely based off of fending off fraud or the violation of someone elses life, liberty, or property. What is happening in the EU and US to Microsoft is liken to Corporate Espionage via Government Force. If these companies had walked in and forced Microsoft at gunpoint to hand over documentation of their internal API's they would have been put in jail. But going to Governments and getting them to do it for them is considered "embracing interoperability".

you constantly attempt to whitewash MS's bad deeds

You misunderstand nearly all of my points.

First, I don't see alot of what Microsoft does as "bad deeds". For example, negoatiating contracts for volume licenses is a contract between two private parties and frankly, unless one or both of the parties was under deress or a victim of fraud, the government is Consitutionally restricted from interfering. Of the deeds that I do feel are "bad" I see none that are not faults of every other average individual or Corporation. Companies are not a new entity they are actually a group of HUMANS who have human qualities like making mistakes, being too ambitious, etc. The sooner you realize that Companies are actually individuals working together the faster you will be able to be more rational about Companies in general.

contd..

#44 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:12:30 AM

Second, I believe that anybody has the right to choose what they do with their property in all circumstances regardless of a majority view from the outside. The Government and Microsoft's Competitors have contributed nothing (other than being consumers) when it comes to investment and development in Microsoft Technologies. They have no right to say what Microsoft can or can't do with them in my eyes. So when I see Competitors like Netscape, Google, AOL or any other company lose in the market place and run to Government to get Microsoft to let them play with their toys I will defend Microsoft every time just as I would for any company or individual. Again Microsoft has no Godlike control over me or any other entity. Every one has had a choice to use its products or others in the Marketplace. Microsoft's are usually better through a mixture of features, support, price, and supporting products to anything else available at the time. That my friend is why they are a blue chip who started with a very forward thinking purchase and a sly and nimble contract.

Third, I've actually written software and supported it. I don't see Microsoft's reluctance to "open" their API's and fileformats as the work of an Evil entity hellbent on world domination. I see them not wanting to have to publish and support API's that they can change at the drop of a hat internally. They have always focused on amazing support via documentation and backwards compatibility which is why it took them 4 years to comply with the EU's request. They actually had to organize, document, and prepare to support API's the entire world was going to use from now until the foreseeable future. You have no idea what that costs and how that effects ongoing plans in developement which is why you think a statement "they should just interoperate" is so plain and simlpe. God help me if someone walked in and forced me to open some of my internal API's on projects... I'd have to spend a month or two on some of mine so I can't imagine what MS would do.

Fourth and finally, I have a real problem with the microscope people apply to Microsoft products while not bothering to place the same standards on other products. I've used Linux off and on for years. Its a red headed stepchild for usability, installations etc. Unbuntu is the first real good shot at a main stream OS but I think the Decade of Linux hype has worn on the consumer. The OSX release was a complete piece of trash and has become better and better as the years pass by.

Personally the Vista change from Microsoft was an industry defining moment. They were basically forcing their entire install base (what 90% of all users) to purchase a new computer and forcing the entire inventory of hardware at today's distrubtors to be obselete and factory lines, supply chains to be shut down by manufacturers. Small minded, single demensional, polaroid thinkers like yourself don't quite appreciate the amazing impact Microsoft caused the Computer market. They were going to start with a full force approach making every consumer adopt new hardware to run Vista. They ended up after a year realizing this version of windows would have to be able to provide a better transition. I'm still amazed at how well its gone and am quite happy with the Operating System because when you put it in context with its competitors and the afforable hardware for the average consumer its doing damn well.

#45 By 23275 (68.186.182.236) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:18:23 AM

Latch, publicly, I have at least given you credit for being sincere - so in that spirit, read on...

I don't give a rip about Microsoft, or any other corporation. What I care about is the people that we serve. I do asses, and also believe (there is a really important difference there), that technology has the potential to advance the human condition. I have stated repeatedly, that we do not make money by selling Microsoft software - we do not margin it one cent. We earn money by building and sustaining solutions. We use Microsoft software - its platforms and tools in order to do that, but we also use the software produced by many other companies, too.

We can debate the merits and faults inherent to capitalism and perhaps we should, but all available evidence supports that economies based upon it best support the largest number of people as compared to other socio-economic systems man has attempted. Imperfect as it may be, capitalism has helped more people live better than other systems.

How do we make Microsoft better? Simple. By being better ourselves and not allowing any one evil, or misdeed shape what we ourselves do.

When I read Humpty's remarks and I see a man that very probably works to make things better. While I fail more often than not, I apply sincere and consistent efforts to try and do the same. I assess there is enough evidence to support the truth of that right here on this site.

However naively, I believe that corporations like Microsoft are made better when the people that buy their products are better themselves. Applying a sober, realistic philosophy in doing that can be frustrating and even hurtful, but it is worth it. If in fact we are to be sincere in our efforts to truly help people and enable them, we have to be prepared to work with what is.

Right now there is a globalization of software (and I am not speaking in any physical, or geographic context) taking place that not even Microsoft can prevent, or control - they can influence it and they will, but they cannot control it. Software itself is driving this and what many do not understand is what we think of as "our computer" is going to change so fast, it will stun many people. EVERYTHING is "our computer" The globalization of software means that all software belongs to all of us and all of those building yet more software. Microsoft knows this and perhaps better than any of us.

So let's say, for the sake of argument, we do not credit Microsoft with being "good" - let's at least credit them for being "smart." Software is an expression of knowledge and like any bit of knowledge it eventually becomes common. Where knowledge is common it is openly accessible - Microsoft will continue to make money by making it easier to access and combine seemingly dissimilar bits of it with others. As a globalized existence however, every bit of that will be open and as much benefit will come back to Microsoft as goes out to others.

So you, and I, or any other will make Microsoft better by being better ourselves - by seeking the best in all things and all people. Now if you consider all the times I have reached out to you and sought accommodation and each time you have rejected that; ask yourself how that will ever make Microsoft, or any corporation better. You may ask for examples and you need look no further than the post you are now reading - you surely are aware of all we do to make it possible.

#46 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:39:04 AM

#42 Why do you taunt me so... man I'm glad its a slow week. *cracks fingers* Lets go...

entrenched corporate culture that subscribes to the theory of "the ends justify the means"

You have no idea how MS structures its development projects. They work in Pods or groups on new projects. They toss many of their programmers back and forth from projects on a regular basis. They are in a large corporation with a $250B+ market cap and probably in the billions of shareholders. So to them the "ends" is providing profitability for its owners much like you're ends involves providing profitabilty for yourself.

combined with their arrogance that is product of their market dominance, has led them to their many ethics problems and antitrust issues over the past 2 decades

I'll take the last part first please. Every company has "ethics" problems when you have thousands of employees and are ruthless in your pursuit of the best contracts. Riding the line has its risks and they've been hurt a couple times. Anti Trust issues I've already covered and if you really want to talk with any semblance of competitance you should probably read a book about the history of the Anti-Trust law in the United States and how its rarely helped consumers and only helped competitors. And if you think they are"arrogant" I'd love to have you show me where they have actually exploited the consumer? They offer the same title's for the same price for a decade and you call that "arrogance"? Seriously if they actually started chucking up the price and stopped including free features into their software what would you say then? Right now at their current pricing as a business expense per worker Microsoft Office, Windows XP/Vista Professional, Windows 2003/2008 Server, Exchange Server 2005/2008, SQL Server 2005/2008 are PENNIES over the lifetime of the product. I know that's hard to hear for someone who obviously is a Polaroid thinker (one who doesn't factor time into his reasoning) but when I buy a computer witha $200 OS, $300 Office program, $150 in CAL's (give or take) and I know that user can use those products for 2-3 years before a real need to upgrade. I just sign the check and move on :)

What is your solution to the problem of MS subverting the ISO process?

Last I checked Microsoft can choose to follow any public process if it sees fit. If it hurts their bottom line then they will have to rethink. But frankly 99.9% of users don't even know what "ISO Process" means nor will they ever care. They care about Installs going smoothly, tons of softare titles available to them, actual security, etc. etc. My solution is simple "hey Microsoft I hope you know what you're doing there cause it could bite you in the ass in the future" and I go on my merry way.

contd...

#47 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:39:23 AM

What is your solution to MS bribing partners to scuttle competitors deals?

My friend only Polictians can receive bribes because they have police powers. Their "partners" had no gun to their head to work with Microsoft. Everybody works in business to get the best deal possible and if possible make it exclusive. I'm all for it until it hurts the consumer... at which point the consumer should just not buy the offending companies products and services.

What is your solution to the 45 infringement cases that MS is currently fighting

Ah patents. Have you ever applied for one? Have you ever seen what people can patent. Finding public documents is a pain in the ass when it comes to doing work. As MS spends billions of dollars a year on R&D it makes sense that one of thier guys would come up with something someone else did too. If they lose a Patent lawsuit then they will pay for infringing on someone elses property. If they win then they can go on their merry way. But, you don't seem them lobbying a congressman to force those companies to license those patents to Microsoft at a certain rate do you? Patents are there to be protected. And in this day in age I'm surprised they are only fighting 45 at this point.

What is your solution to MS constant patent FUD against Linux?

FUD falls under the "Everybody does it thing" Linux supporters have tossed around FUD forever. MS is going to forever too. Its perfectly fine with me and its up to the consumer to decide what's what. My solution? If you as a consumer don't like it don't buy their products. Educate others and get them not to buy their products. At some point, if its as bad as you make it out to be, Microsoft will lose enough money to put its FUD cap away for good.

What is your solution to MS chronic lip service about interoperability when their actions clearly show a great reluctance to afford said interoperability?

I think I've paid this enough lip service. I'll just some it up as "You haven't the slightest idea or appreciation for what you are talking about, but talk away if you must."

I want MS to be better, and I'm not talking about Vista or any other MS product

So do I and any other Shareholder, Employee, or Consumer of Microsoft's products and services. I just choose to do so by providing intelligent and reasonable feedback through the channels avialable to me and by purchasing products I think are worth my dime :)

Now seriously I need to get some work done.

#48 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:45:01 AM

#45 To tie what you and I are saying I'll add one thing

He is very right in that companies and governments are a reflection of their consumers and citizens. The reason capitalism has succeeded in making our country a tiny 200 years in existance an insane powerhouse in the world is because capitalism believes in the message of the dollar.

So often I hear people complain that athletes make too much money. I agree. And I don't pay hundreds of dollars to sit in a nose bleed seat at a second rate team. However, the majority does. That "value" the public places on those teams is reflected in how much money those athletes make.

I don't believe going to the government to change anything is the right thing to do unless some entity is commiting fraud or is impeding on some entities life, liberty, or property. The fastest and most effective message you can send is your dollar (or lack thereof) to any entity. Don't like the way an employee is behaving or performing? Dock their pay or fire them. Don't like the way the food tastes at a cafe? Don't eat there.

Take 10 minutes and understand that concept. You will become a better advocate because of it.

This post was edited by MrHumpty on Friday, February 29, 2008 at 11:46.

#49 By 102839 (12.14.115.254) at Friday, February 29, 2008 11:48:43 AM

#40: "I will remind you that you attacked me when I had never said anything against you..." Who's playing the victim? Because I call you nasty (and I should have said your posts; I don't know you from Adam) you come back with I'm playing the victim? Your comments are often nasty. This is true. And you didn't answer if it was OK to hurl insults at some one as long as it's done rarely.

And if you really think my initial post was an attack on you (come on, it was tame), then maybe it is you who should be getting out of the kitchen.

*****

"...but I am wondering why you seem to need to create a new login every time you post." Odd that you would wonder about that. I created an account this AM w/only the required fields, got to work and wanted to respond to you. I could not remember the PW, so I created another account using as close a name as to the original that I could. No mystery.

#50 By 1896 (68.153.171.248) at Friday, February 29, 2008 12:12:16 PM

#45:"They were going to start with a full force approach making every consumer adopt new hardware to run Vista."

I do not agree completely with your statement: I installed and used Vista on several computers since Beta 1 and the only hardware I replaced was my soundcard. Indeed all my systems were quite new. no older than one year in 2006, and with at least 2GB of memory.
What I see as a problem is the old habit that MS, as well as other companies, constantly set the minimum requirements to run OSes and or other apps way too low. Technically you might be able to run the software with a machine that match these minimum specs but realistically in order to have a pleasant and productive experience the requirements are higher.
The debate about Vista be worth the upgrade over XP is, in my opinion, a very personal matter and there is not an absolute, final truth about it.
Personally I think that having seven different versions is too much, as it is a mistake the fact that some versions are only available under volume license.
Finally I strongly believe that the biggest mistake MS did was not to offer a "real" "Family pack" option where you would have been able to buy three or five licenses with a consistent dscount.

This post was edited by Fritzly on Friday, February 29, 2008 at 12:14.

#51 By 3746 (72.12.161.38) at Friday, February 29, 2008 12:19:08 PM

I sometimes wonder why we even bother responding to latch. I mean it is great to have a meaningful discussion but as I pointed out if you bring up any interesting or valid points he just pulls the shill/fanboy card. I don't know much about the others but I do know that I make my living in the IT business. I like to eat so that means I am honest with myself about the technology I use. I realize that there is good and bad in everything including Vista. Just having a positive opinion about and MS product doesn't mean that i am a fanboy. If anything I can be far more critical about MS and their missteps then the average person.

What I don't get how Latch doesn't realize that it is insulting to make a summary judgment about something with little to no hands on experience. Someone like Lketchum is in a way better position to bring forth a valid opinion then someone who has just read other people's opinions and then regurgitates them. I guess this is the nature of the internet age though. I come from a time where I feel like I need to actually use a product before i feel I can discuss it's merits.

This post was edited by kaikara on Friday, February 29, 2008 at 12:20.

#52 By 89249 (64.207.240.90) at Friday, February 29, 2008 01:22:41 PM

#50 Great points. I too wish Minimum requirements were higher for almost everything I see. And hell ya to a Family Pack. Purchase a Windows Home Server + 4 Vista Ultimate or something I'd be pumped.

#51 TBH I'm glad he makes the points here. SlashDot is overloaded with people who think like them and getting an opposing opinion on there is tough. Those who want to hear a actual response to most of their Hippy-ish commentary can come here. I'm glad to cook up a couple counter arguments to his thinking. If anything it may not alter his opinion but it will help others on the fence understand the other, usually less silent, point of view.

Oh and I saw a reference to post count. I've been on these forums since like '99 or so. I just didn't log in for so long that I think my account got deleted :) Latch is playing the role of his predecessors quite well.

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