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Windows XP to be phased out by year's end despite customer demand | |
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| Time: 02:52 EST/07:52 GMT | News Source: APC Mag | Posted By: Kenneth van Surksum | ||
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Computer makers have been told they'll no longer be able to get Windows XP OEM by the end of this year, despite consumer resistance to Vista and its compatibility problems. By early 2008, Microsoft's contracts with computer makers will require companies to only sell Vista-loaded machines. "The OEM version of XP Professional goes next January," said Frank Luburic, senior ThinkPad product manager for Lenovo. "At that point, they'll have no choice." Despite Microsoft's relentless promotion of Vista, manufacturers are still seeing plenty of demand from customers for systems preloaded with XP, especially in the finicky SOHO market. |
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Read Only Comments Return to News |
Displaying Comments 1 through 50 of 50 |
This is an archived static copy of ActiveWin.com. |
| #1 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 09:20:17 AM |
| Hmmmph. The joke used to be Microsoft was in favour of choice, so long as you chose Microsoft. Now they want to dictate which Microsoft you choose. Good thing MS always knows what's best for us. I read an interesting post that said previous versions of Windows didn't need to be cut off at the knees like this because people were clamouring for the new version. Not this time, apparently, regardless of how many baked sales figures MS trots out. |
| #2 By 9549 (12.150.6.130) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:06:15 AM |
| What happened to all the dropped 'end all be all "features"' that were supposed to be in Vista were going to ported to XP for longer life cycles of both Os's? For that matter what happened to the end all be all features period? |
| #3 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:23:38 AM |
| They aren't offering the 2006 Civic through dealerships next year? How dare they! Honda is evil. They only care about money. Because everyone knows they only make money on 2008 Civics, not the 2006 models. Duh! And it's just not possible to buy a car any other way than through a dealer, of course. |
| #4 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:28:50 AM |
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#2: MS bit off more than they could chew. I'm sure those missing features, or something based on them, will pop up down the road.
So Dell is saying that customer demand is forcing them to put XP back on systems instead of Vista. Now I'm really confused. MS says Vista is the best-selling OS in the history of the universe, and yet nobody wants it and the OEMs are reverting to XP. |
| #5 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:31:04 AM |
| #3: Funny how they didn't have to do that with any other upgrade. It reeks of desperation. |
| #6 By 2201 (194.205.219.2) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:47:18 AM |
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#4 the Dell example is rubbish. From the very day that Vista was released they have offered buyers the choice of either Vista or XP, it's not they are putting XP back and replacing Vista, buyers have had the choice from the beginning!
This makes business sense, obviously if you are going to sell your new OS/product/whatever, you phase out the old one. So what is exactly the problem here? And since every new version of Windows comes out, there's always still demand for the last one. Quite why people seem to think that the demand suddenly screeches to a halt the minute a new version comes out I don't know. Move along, nothing to see here. |
| #7 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:49:04 AM |
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When you buy Vista you also get downgrade rights.
"Can I downgrade my OEM version of Windows Vista Business to Windows XP Professional? Yes. OEM downgrade rights for desktop PC operating systems apply to Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate as stated in the License Terms. Please note, OEM downgrade versions of Windows Vista Business and Windows Vista Ultimate are limited to Windows XP Professional (including Windows XP Tablet PC Edition and Windows XP x64 Edition). End users can use the following media for their downgrade: Volume Licensing media (provided the end user has a Volume Licensing agreement), retail (FPP), or system builder hologram CD (provided the software is acquired in accordance with the Microsoft OEM System Builder License). Use of the downgraded operating system is governed by the Windows Vista Business License Terms, and the end user cannot use both the downgrade operating system and Windows Vista Business." |
| #8 By 9589 (68.17.52.2) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 10:49:25 AM |
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Once again, the author only speaks for the end user. Meanwhile, Microsoft customers that have Software Assurance contracts can use any one of the operating systems that they choose to use.
By the way, is "despite customer demand" the same thing as saying, "many people think," or right thinking Americans want to know," etc? Sounds like the author was meeting a deadline with nonsense. "Readers" are getting tired of that mularky! |
| #9 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:33:12 AM |
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Few posts and joined threads identify the two sides attending how software, technology, and probably life in general, are viewed as well as this one.
While the recommendation to ignore this thread is a good one, there is some value in the underlying messages being reflected. On one side we see some good things - hope that things are moving forward, optimism, common sense, and reality, and on the other, the ubiquitous messages of doom, negativity, avarice and the suspension of disbelief. One needn't ID who falls on which side of the obvious line here - we all know who is who. Testman at #6 said it best - see, common sense. This post was edited by lketchum on Thursday, April 12, 2007 at 11:42. |
| #10 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 11:55:05 AM |
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#3: Here is a slight variant on your example, to better illustrate the other side of the issue. When Honda came out with the Prelude, did it feel compelled to quickly phase out the Civic? No, they just sell both models, give yearly updates to both models, and make more money by selling Civics to those who want the latest Civic model, and Preludes to those who want the latest Prelude model. That is good business.
Your example would be more apt if Microsoft was phasing out selling of Windows XP SP 1 and only allowing OEMs to sell Windows XP SP2, and then when XP SP3 comes out, withholding licenses for SP 2, so that only the latest model of Windows XP is being sold. That was basically what your example was illustrating. Close, but not quite the same thing. |
| #11 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:00:47 PM |
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Latch: #3: Funny how they didn't have to do that with any other upgrade. It reeks of desperation.
Short memory. They've done that with every version I can remember. At some point, they stop selling the older version. What a crazy idea. |
| #12 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:06:41 PM |
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#10--but it's not two different models. I can see that if they sold, say, MS DOS and Windows at the same time (or say, Vista and Singularity...). But this is a new version of Windows, not some other OS. Besides, they are still selling XP pre-loaded on machines for a year--that's a long time. They can't support every OS forever, and people will complain if they buy an XP machine in 2008/9 that they bought an OS with a very short support lifespan.
This isn't new. Look back to how long you could get 2000 pre-loaded after XP came out--it wasn't this long. |
| #13 By 7754 (216.160.8.41) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:11:18 PM |
| As I'm reading these comments... it's funny to note how one of the reasons cited is "backwards compatibility." And how many times have we read that people wish that Microsoft just cut ties with backwards compatibility ("like Apple does!")? There's just no way to please everyone. |
| #14 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:11:31 PM |
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#12, bluvg, the word crazy may well be appropriate - Microsoft is on track to add an additional 4 billion in profit this year over last - against a record, 50 billion in revenue.
If that is desperate in any way, then we should all be so lucky to be equally hopeless. |
| #15 By 47914 (24.225.231.107) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:12:39 PM |
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#5 It reeks of desperation.
YOU should be so desperate!! This post was edited by mirt on Thursday, April 12, 2007 at 12:15. |
| #16 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:22:10 PM |
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#7: What if you don't have either of those versions? And why would I want it anyway, considering Vista lets 17% of all known malware through?
#9: If you think I'm full of crap then come out and say it instead of this veiled fluff you type. #10: A much better analogy. #11: Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious. Yes, I'm well aware that they eventually stop selling old versions. #12: Honda sells cars, Accord and Prelude are two different models of Honda car. They sell them concurrently. There is demand for both. Honda recognizes that it can better serve different groups with different models, and I don't just mean different options packages (Vista editions). It only makes sense to drop XP when the economics dictate. If people want to buy it, and there are enough of them to validate continued work on the OS, then do it. This just appears like MS is in a hurry to push everyone to Vista, and so that end we don't know what their motivations are. The generous would say MS only has user's concerns at heart and wants everyone to benefit from the supposed increased security in Vista. Others, who have seen MS in action, might think it's a cynical ploy to force upward migration to spur sales of Vista, PCs and upgraded apps that work on Vista. |
| #17 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:36:43 PM |
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#16, As I said, and you have confirmed, One needn't ID who falls on which side of the obvious line here - we all know who is who. If you'd like to make a public admission of some kind, then that is up to you.
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| #18 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:47:06 PM |
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#13: Who, beside the original article author, has mentioned backward compatibility as a reason?
#12: I think XP should be co-developed and supported for as long as sufficient demand is there because I think Microsoft could make even more money by selling both products. If no one was buying XP, and demand from the OEMs and retail outlets showed that people were flocking to Vista, and XP sales had tanked, then this would be a non-story. But in this case, it sounds like the demand is still there for XP, so why wouldn't Microsoft want to make money from the people wanting to purchase a new system with XP preloaded? Since Microsoft is a public company, and driven only by the need to make even more money than it did in previous quarters / years, the only logical course would be to drop XP, so that would stop being an expense to maintain, despite the amount of money it could make them, and force everyone to use Vista, which they charge even more money for, and have only one OS development team. From a corporate perspective, it makes sense. However, it is a lie to claim that it is being done for the benefit of the consumer. However, as a mega-corporation, they have to be more interested in the shareholders than the customers. That is just a natural side effect of being a public company, and almost all public companies of any significant size have this problem. I am certainly not picking on Microsoft specifically in this particular case. |
| #19 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:55:57 PM |
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#16 "And why would I want it anyway, considering Vista lets 17% of all known malware through"
Poor Latch. Bad math skills again. (Actually, the same old lie) The truth is 96-98% of current malware didn`t run on Vista. "Symantec's results showed that even with such technologies, about 3% of existing back doors and about 4% of existing keyloggers can successfully be installed on a Vista system and survive a reboot without any modifications to the code. In addition, 4% of existing mass mailers and 2% of Trojan horses and spyware programs tested successfully infected Vista, Whitehouse said." http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9011986 This post was edited by NotParker on Thursday, April 12, 2007 at 12:58. |
| #20 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 12:57:47 PM |
| Latch, when do you plan to actually try Vista so your lies will have a tiny bit more believability? |
| #21 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:10:14 PM |
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#18: Ah yes, the MS apologist crowd on the side of truth, justice and the American way. Anyone critical of MS is a doom & gloom negativitist who clearly, clearly, can't see reality. You're getting more like Parkkker every day. It's funny, though. Whenever I point out something massively boneheaded or evil on MS' part, I never ever get any refutation from you or Parkkker, just generalizations and distractions. Who is suspending their disbelief again?
#20: AMD64 X2s just dropped like a stone and Intel is announcing their own C2D price breaks later this month. I won't pick up a new system for at least 1-3 months now. maybe in August during the Back To School sales. And even then, I'm not going to waste much time with it. After I've played with Ubuntu 7.4 I'll decide if I'm going to it or back to XP. Vista's got too much baggage and I don't need the hassle. Maybe when SP1 comes out I'll pay attention again. |
| #22 By 2201 (81.107.201.78) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:16:42 PM |
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#16 Latch - bad analogy. Windows Vista is a newer version of Windows, not a different line. So if we were using a car analogy, we'd say Honda Civic 7th gen (XP) and Honda Civic 8th gen (Vista). Honda stop production of the 7th gen when the 8th gen is out.
Now if you are talking about Accord and Prelude, then you'd be talking about 2003 Server and Vista. Two different lines based on similar technology and both will run concurrently. XP has been replaced by Vista, like Civic 8th gen has replaced 7th gen. See? |
| #23 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:25:12 PM |
| #22: I see just fine. The problem is I disagree. There isn't a perfetc analogy and instead of arguing over who has the best one, I'd rather just say that MS should continue to sell both. It's arrogant and reflective of the problems of their monopoly that they can be in the position to say "We refruse to take your money for A and we'll instad insist you buy B". A smart business takes the money from whetever stream it's coming from. Now, I don't pretend to know all the details of the channel and the MS/OEM relationship, but if there is demand then it should be serviced. Forcing users to do what is against their wishes or interests is arrogant and indicative of a culture of entitlement at MS. |
| #24 By 8556 (12.210.32.201) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:25:54 PM |
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5 years passed from Windows XP's release to Vista's release. In that time span XP wound up on a LOT of PCs as both OEM and upgrades from Win98. The initial release of XP was scorned by many happy Windows 2000 users, and that was only 2 years after Windows 2000 came out.
Windows "2010" will be scorned by satisfied Vista users that don't want that silly WinFS and other future features. |
| #25 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:28:35 PM |
| #21: I am a Microsoft apologist? I am sounding more and more like Parkkker every day? You've got to lay off that crack pipe for a few days, and let your body recover. :-) I presume you simply mis-numbered the comment? |
| #26 By 2201 (81.107.201.78) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:31:15 PM |
| #23 but I don't see why they should have to. At the end of the day it's a business decision, not something that will kill thousands of people. If people want to get XP on their machine, they can do some other way, but businesses can't support products for ever. There will always be people who will be hurt by this but that's progress. |
| #27 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 01:32:27 PM |
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#25: Sorry, I made a mistake. And unlike a lot of people here, I can admit it. If I wanted to fit in better here, I would just go away silently and then make the same mistake tomorrow. This post was edited by Latch on Thursday, April 12, 2007 at 13:37. |
| #28 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:01:02 PM |
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How can anyone credibly opine regarding Windows Vista, if they have not used it fully and over a period of time. Similarly, how can such comments be regarded with any validity in any context outside of the perspective of a single, lay end user, if one's experience is equally limited?
To do so reflects dogma - the most appropriate definition of arrogance - beliefs held out as fact without the benefit of any form of evidence. To use any other form of argument to counter Latch's present statements is like yelling at a rock - he has no basis from which to understand any counter arguments being presented. He's decided without sufficient experience, that Windows Vista is a bad product. That's fine and all are welcome to decide similarly - we simply have to take this into consideration when responding. Countering such dogma is appropriate, as many people come here to learn more about what is going on regarding Microsoft software. I hope that they take one message away from their exposure here - that if they want a great computing experience, Windows Vista is a good choice and worth the investment in time, money and energy needed to use it. Certainly as good, and in many ways, better, than the computing experience that one may have using other operating systems - including Windows XP versions. |
| #29 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:09:11 PM |
| #28: So, let me see if I understand what you are saying? You are saying that Latch (and I, for that matter) have no basis to argue that Microsoft should sell BOTH Windows XP and Vista, solely because we have not used Vista since the RC or Beta days? And you call him / us dogmatic? I've never owned a Honda Civic, Prelude, or Accord, but I can still see good business reasons for Honda to sell all three models, and I can see good economic reasons for Microsoft to sell both XP and Vista, if there is sufficient demand for both. I am not saying that XP should be sold forever, but if there is sufficient demand, I do not see what benefits there are to forcing people to only use the newest OS version, except politically motivated ones. That has nothing to do with whether or not Vista is better or worse than XP. I don't know which Honda model is better either, but that doesn't stop me from understanding the business benefits of selling different models and editions. |
| #30 By 15406 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:20:31 PM |
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#28: What utter crap. Your statement might be valid if I had been living in a cave for the past few years. I have been following the development of Vista since it was announced. I have read every review I have seen and have absorbed the experiences of many users, from hardcore geeks to simple business users. So far, nothing I've seen has been compelling enough to make me want to use it compared to XP, whereas the negative aspects are very hard to ignore. What you are getting from me is my opinion based on the many experiences of others. Its no different than saying "I heard it was a crap movie" because your friends saw it and said it was crap, and the local reviewer you trust said it was crap, the trailers you saw were unimpressive and you didn't like the interview one of the actors gave.
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| #31 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:39:16 PM |
| It should also be mentioned that Dell is going Microsoft one better, and discontinuing XP sales sometime during or at the end of the current Summer season (Northern Hemisphere). So, they are not even waiting until the end of the Microsoft enforced time limit. |
| #32 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:47:57 PM |
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#29, 30, Mystic, I am saying exactly what I said, for one to conclude that the reason that XP should not at some point be phased out of the OEM channel, because there is nothing compelling about its programmed replacement, and where such an opinion is not supported by direct experience, then such an opinion is largely irrelevant, empty and lacking a pragmatic base of support.
Your arguments are based upon different suppositions and are more valid - arguing that if a product remains in demand by customers then the seller should consider continuing to offer it. Obviously, a very different argument that would not necessarily require any experience of any kind with any of the associated products - reducing the decision to one influenced by basic business considerations - which by the way, I submit are being considered and as such, and appropriate, fair, and supportable decision is exactly what Microsoft has made. Latch's arguments include subjective and objective experience based properties that require that one must conclude that a personal opinion can't be well supported without personal experience. I do appreciate your defense of Latch and suspect it was offered just to keep the fires stoked - human interaction requires that, and most find such exchanges enjoyable. Do also note, that in my original post reference this subject, I did not identify Latch - Latch associated himself with the negative viewpoint that I offered was evident - while predictable, it does cause one to ask again, "what does Latch like?" My hope is that he does like something and that we can share what that is. Something simple, like a particular color, would do - anything to see something other than that which is negative - shoot, we could start a trend [okay, enough... now I'm the one stoking...] lk: Rock? rock: <nothing> lk: Rock? rock: <nothing> lk: Rock? rock: <nothing> lk: See, I told you, "nothing" |
| #33 By 76967 (68.194.154.33) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 02:58:24 PM |
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Despite all the flaring tempers here. I would like to chime in. Personally, I think MS should lengthen the life expectancy of XP. But not for any of the reasons already discussed. As we all know vista is terribly resource intensive. So upgrading older machines often is not an option (or at least a very pricey one). For this reason consumers and small businesses are going to suffer. I have bought several vista machines for my company some low end some high end. And I can say without a doubt the cheaper ones (which came with vista loaded) people are unhappy with the performance of vista.
So while I understand MS's side of the phase out, I think they need to rethink it, to try to be more caring to their customers. Most regular people can't afford to throw out a few grand on a decent machine to give vista good speed and usability. When a equally modern lower end machine would run XP just fine. |
| #34 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:06:36 PM |
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Bigots prefer to be as uninformed as possible. It threatens their worldview less.
It was hilarious to see such narrow minded twits insist I try another OS (consider I am a VMS Admin) when they haven't even tried Vista. |
| #35 By 2960 (24.254.95.224) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:13:55 PM |
| This is nothing more than a Monopoly in action. You won't buy it, we'll FORCE you to. |
| #36 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:28:26 PM |
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#32: The reason I am sticking up for Latch is that he has been echoing the same argument here that I have, namely that Microsoft should give people the option for both OSes, and reap the financial benefit of both revenue streams. He may have gone deeper into the reasons why they may have made the decision to do this, but his base argument in this thread has always been about giving the customer a choice.
As for keeping the fires stoked, when I want to do that, I egg on Parkkker. He is a much easier target, and he gets all riled up easier than Latch does. And it is more entertaining to see what is spewed out of his keyboard. #33: Well put! #35: Right on! When the Vista driver issues are worked out by all the major hardware makers, and Vista SP 1 is released to deal with many of the compatibility issues, I will likely purchase a new computer with Vista SP 1 pre-installed on it. Until then, my home machine will remain an XP box. That does not preclude me from using it at the office, however, if I ever get a system capable of running it in full Aero mode. I have no interest in a bare bones basic Vista install. |
| #37 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:36:53 PM |
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#36 Latch says you are just an MS apologist.
And, if you had read my earlier post, you would know that anyone who buys an OEM copy of Vista Business or Ultimate has the legal right to install XP Professional instead. |
| #38 By 2201 (82.27.241.166) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:43:11 PM |
| #35 inaccurate. Noone is forcing you to buy Vista. In fact, you will still be able to buy XP and install that on your machine seperately. If you don't want Vista, you don't have to buy it. |
| #39 By 37047 (216.191.227.68) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 03:57:08 PM |
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#37: A) See popst #27
B) You mean they will let me use XP if I pay the higher price for Vista Ultimate? How generous of them. |
| #40 By 32132 (142.32.208.234) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 05:03:34 PM |
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#39 XP OEM Profession is 139 on NewEgg. As is Vista Business OEM.
If you want more features, you can buy Vista Ultimate OEM for 189. You can downgrade either to Xp Pro. Isn't choice wonderful? |
| #41 By 20505 (216.102.144.11) at Thursday, April 12, 2007 06:50:18 PM |
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I for one am an XP fanboy. Guess I'm SOL on this one. But one comment to those on this forum who work for (or have pull with) MS.
Could you guys please inform MS that a default XP look on the desk top for Vista would be wonderful. Why is it that I have to choose Aero or Classic Windows. I for one dislike both looks, in a word, one is fussy and stupid, and the other is from the stone age. Also what is it with Vista that it looks absolutely TERRIBLE with font smoothing turned off on an LCD screen? I absolutely hate this "feature" - XP is worlds better in this regard. Sorry to tell the bozos at MS but the "classic" interface for Windows is XP in all its simple utilitarian glory. |
| #42 By 2201 (194.205.219.2) at Friday, April 13, 2007 07:08:16 AM |
| #41 Funny that cos I've also heard lots of people who utterly hate the XP "Fisher Price" look. Me, personally I don't care, I simply use WindowBlinds and change it to whatever I like. |
| #44 By 61 (12.108.60.37) at Friday, April 13, 2007 11:13:59 AM |
| Tech, how exactly is discontinuing to sell a product (and note, this is only OEMs we are talking about here) that is 6 years old (ancient in the computer industry) a monopoly in action, and forcing? |
| #45 By 23275 (24.179.4.158) at Friday, April 13, 2007 11:16:12 AM |
| #43 - Man, that is great work! I intend to refer many people to your site to review what you have put together. I think it will help people make much more informed decisions about Windows Vista. |
| #46 By 2960 (24.254.95.224) at Friday, April 13, 2007 01:54:56 PM |
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#44,
It's all about INTENT. It is MS's INTENT to force people to Vista. I don't see how that can be denied. TL |
| #47 By 61 (12.108.60.37) at Friday, April 13, 2007 02:03:57 PM |
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YOU say it is their intent to "force" Vista on you.
But let's look at the facts. Microsoft is still providing updates for XP (and will continue to do so until it's standard end of life). You can still buy XP in stores. Your XP install will not deactivate. You will still be able to activate XP. The switch over to Vista for OEMs does not effect pricing in any way. I could go on. Now, unless Bill Gates is beating down your door with an m16 in hand, or Steve B. is comeing to annoy you with his squirrelly voice and horrible dancing, I would say they are not forcing you to do anything. Now, of course they want to migrate everyone over to their new product. Are you going to kick and scream about EVERY single company that ever was, is, or will ever be, for wanting to miagrate customers to their new product. This post was edited by CPUGuy on Friday, April 13, 2007 at 14:05. |
| #48 By 2201 (86.27.92.205) at Friday, April 13, 2007 02:32:14 PM |
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#46 You must be weak-willed then. They are people who are still on Windows 98. And that's good, cos no one's forcing anyone to upgrade.
So what if Windows XP will cease to be at the OEM level, that's what's happened with every other Windows release since Godknowswhen and it doesn't stop you from buying it seperately at all. As #43 has pointed out, pure FUD. BTW '43, no link to part 3 on the bottom of part 2. But good article, bookmarked! This post was edited by testman on Friday, April 13, 2007 at 14:36. |
| #49 By 2332 (66.92.78.241) at Friday, April 13, 2007 03:38:50 PM |
| Fixed the missing link in part 2. Thanks for the heads up. |
| #50 By 2960 (24.254.95.224) at Saturday, April 14, 2007 05:59:35 PM |
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#48,
No need to get personal. And I assure you I am anything but weak-willed. Just ask the guys around here :) TL |
